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Post by pystekhag on May 24, 2007 21:30:46 GMT
I agree with Abe that Steve has come up with some valid points on how to improve the showing world.
I stated in an earlier post that if used correctly I felt Horsegossip could in fact bring improvements to the showing world so with this in mind perhaps he and other members with a genuine interest at heart would like to join me in the members area for a constructive debate on how to achieve this end. Thanks.
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Post by Guestless on May 24, 2007 21:37:33 GMT
Good idea Russell.
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steve
Junior Member
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Post by steve on May 24, 2007 21:41:11 GMT
If you want to start a thread Russell I would gladly join in with a sensible debate.
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Post by pystekhag on May 24, 2007 21:46:43 GMT
Done
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Post by Help on May 25, 2007 11:41:07 GMT
For everyone competing to give up 4 hours at each Championship Show to assist the organisers. Only 4% will be thoughtful enough do this but that would still be of value
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Post by Clear on May 25, 2007 12:33:38 GMT
I really think there should be much more transparency in the appointment of judges to panels.
At the moment, you need to be nominated to be able to put yourself forward as a judge. I believe that there should be a list available of who has nominated each judge - and then should they be eligible to go under that judge when fully qualified? That's another debate!
Showing needs to be as transparent as possible and I feel this would be an importnat step.
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Post by kubwa on May 25, 2007 12:39:30 GMT
I really think there should be much more transparency in the appointment of judges to panels. At the moment, you need to be nominated to be able to put yourself forward as a judge. I believe that there should be a list available of who has nominated each judge - and then should they be eligible to go under that judge when fully qualified? That's another debate! Showing needs to be as transparent as possible and I feel this would be an importnat step. Totally agree with this due to an experience with BSHCRHA(?) now British show horse association or something. I really wanted to do their young ride judge scheme but because I didn't know anyone on the panel to nominate me, I couldn't do it. At the time they were complaining about not having enough ride judges! So utterly facey & i'm so glad I don't have anything to do with them anymore. If you think M&M showing is facey & bi**hy, they'll show you how to do it 10 times worse!!
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Post by i wish on May 25, 2007 13:57:52 GMT
I think the best rules that could ever be passed would be 1 not allow judges to judge their friends and even though it would not solve all the problems it would go along way and before judges say it would be too hard to do and it is questioning their integrity it would still benefit the grass root members. 2 Judges who are judging HOYS RIHS Olympia qualifiers should not be allowed to judge other judges that are trying to qualify HOYS RIHS Olympia in the same year so that you qualify mine and i`ll qualify yours would be stopped i know this is not what a lot of judges want to hear but it is most definatly what most people want.
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judge
Junior Member
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Post by judge on May 25, 2007 14:16:56 GMT
Totally agree with this due to an experience with BSHCRHA(?) now British show horse association or something. I really wanted to do their young ride judge scheme but because I didn't know anyone on the panel to nominate me, I couldn't do it. At the time they were complaining about not having enough ride judges! So utterly facey & i'm so glad I don't have anything to do with them anymore. If you think M&M showing is facey & bi**hy, they'll show you how to do it 10 times worse!! I didn't know any judges either, so I took the form in to the classes I competed in and asked if they'd sign it! Where there's a will there's a way. If you want judging to not be facy, there's no point in just complaining about it, we all have to get out there and do something about it. That doesn't mean we all have to become judges, but complaining amongst ourselves (which I used to do) and deflecting to other breeds or types of horse ultimately won't change anything. There is faciness in judging, we know there is, and the system does need to be more transparent. The rules to dictate who you can and can't judge can't cover every eventuality unfortunately, and although they could be tighter, at some point we have to rely on judge's own integrity. Perhaps this could be looked into more closely at the assessment stage.
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steve
Junior Member
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Post by steve on May 25, 2007 14:22:33 GMT
I think Judges will be asked next season if they are judging Olympia qualifiers not to compete in any that season.
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Post by showing fan on May 25, 2007 16:34:50 GMT
All very well not judging friends. But if you have been in the job for 55 years how do you not know and be friendly with hundreds of people. I think ALL producers should be banned from judging, that would immediately stop "you scratch my back and I will scratch yours". The assessment day should be much harder, it certainly did not stretch me. Perhaps we could form some sort of meeting in the north west and discuss the feelings of both judges and competitors. I for one would be most interested being a judge and petrified of offending someone and ending up being slated on here.
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Post by please on May 25, 2007 16:51:52 GMT
We need to stop committee members competing at THEIR shows!
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Post by ednalad on May 25, 2007 17:33:31 GMT
Thats all very well stopping committee members from showing...but i think you would find alot of people would no longer go on these committees.... Its a knock on effect because without these committees there would be fewer shows...
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Post by please on May 25, 2007 17:57:29 GMT
Yes, but after all it would only be say one show, like an NPS area show or something which they have a say in organizing - or picking judges
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Buddy
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Post by Buddy on May 25, 2007 18:05:59 GMT
We need to stop committee members competing at THEIR shows! Can I ask please are you on any committee or do you help at any shows, if so which ones.
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Post by I do on May 25, 2007 18:14:06 GMT
I do We need to stop committee members competing at THEIR shows! Can I ask please are you on any committee or do you help at any shows, if so which ones. I am committee although only a local show and no I dont show there. I dont think that it is right to do so either. Surley people should not run a show and compete at that same show. If your only reason for running the show is to compete then you are doing it for the wrong reasons.
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Buddy
Junior Member
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Post by Buddy on May 25, 2007 18:20:23 GMT
How do we get all the help we need then. When I first went on the committee I emphasised that my daughter needed to compete at our show so had nothing to do with the running of the show. However, over time I ended up helping as there was not enough helpers to get the show running smoothly.
We now help run the show and do not compete, and always need extra helpers.
Could someone explain how we can get different people to help, instead of the same few. Not a critism of anyone just asking for sensible advice.
What would make you help at your Area Show? or how can we encourage competitors to give up their day to help?
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Post by Rockstar on May 25, 2007 19:02:19 GMT
Maryh - people who dont run shows just dont realise how HARD it is to organise one, without trying to find helpers. Its the one thing we really worry about. In the end virtually my entire family get roped into helping at our show (Dad, uncle & Bro put up rings, aunts in the sec tent, aunts and cousins stewarding, grandma doing judges lunches...). We really look after our helpers, feed and water them regularly and REALLY appreciate it. So how can we encourage more?
Stewarding really is a fantastic experience, yes its hard work but most judges are willing to impart their knowledge as the classes progress - invaluable experience for anyone wanting to be a judge. I have learnt SO much from standing inside the ring and you do see things totally differently.
Worht everyone remembering: WITHOUT HELPERS THERE WOULD BE NO SHOWS
Something MANY people fail to realise or perhaps just bury their heads in the sand!
How can we encourage more!
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Post by solitaire on May 25, 2007 19:53:47 GMT
Well not competing at the shows if you are on a committee would be impossible in my opinion - the committee I am on run 8 a year so I would hardly get my pony out at all - I don't steward in the ring if my pony is competing at the time and sometimes do an in-hand class prior to stewarding but would not steward for the judge before my class - but having said that i quite often come under judges that I have stewarded for many times as its difficult to avoid in our area but certainly have no favourtism shown towards me - how do u choose between stewarding and being on the committee ( if non of us did that there would be no shows) or risking being judged by a judge that you probably know quite well - i love showing that is why i give so much of my time to stewarding and yes miss out on a lot of classes because of it but i believe we should all give something back to the hobby we love and this is my contribution.
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Post by ednalad on May 25, 2007 19:56:31 GMT
Quite agree with Maryh and rockstar... Me too been on numerous committees,organised many shows,competed at all levels etc etc.. There always seems to be many folk quick enough to "knock" shows/judges/organisation etc and yet they seem not to be willing to give up some( or alot) of their time to help run these shows......WITHOUT ORGANISERS/COMMITTEES/HELPERS/STEWARDS ETC.....NO SHOWS!!!! ( and NO im not aiming this comment at any one person)
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Post by was there on May 25, 2007 20:23:28 GMT
I wonder how many of the people who come on this site and knock judges. committees, stewards, show organisers the nps actually help in any way at shows. The only thing they use are there loud mouths to whinge and complain non stop.
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Post by fellfreak on May 25, 2007 21:11:24 GMT
If everyone is worried about it being totally straight judging, why cant the steward fill in an A5 sheet after each show with the marks and a couple of comments, followed by a confirmation mark like they do in dressage (obviously a very scaled down version). I have stewarded a quite a few HOYS and a couple of olympias and know for a fact that most decent judges will always have a couple of commens after each show. It would not be a complicated thing for each steward to do and competitors could send an SAE or wait for the comment sheets.
This way we would actually know what we could do to improve our ride marks especially. Dressage riders scrutinise their test sheets to enable them to work on any weak points. I know people will say there is not enough time but a couple of comments in a 2 minute show is nothing to dressage writing every move for a 3 to 4 minute test.
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Post by Show Sec on May 25, 2007 22:34:06 GMT
Probably not on par with the bigger shows etc and only being a meduim level judge ( use the term lightly as i will make my first county panel debute later in the year though mainly do local), I judge to a high Honest standard as shows in the number of weekends i am booked this year !!!
I am also in charge of 3 shows this year 2 which are meduim level( local level classes with some affiliated ) and one county show.
I would not dream of competing at the 2 medium level shows but wish someone would hold something similar so i could compete there. either are my children allowed to compete even in the fun classes.
Wouldnt compete at the county show i run with the exception of possibly the pleasure drive in the future if we get no entrants yeta gain and if i had 5 mins to go in with pony all gotten ready by someone else !!!!! ( dont think i will actually get to do that with time constraints !!!)
Even though we are Medium level for the 2 shows i like to think we have a high standard of common sense rules and genuine judges, i do take the time to have a discussion with all our judges and i know it may only be their word, but most like to hear we are trying to run a good honest show and generally if they are fair and honest they are more than happy to judge for us.
I must admit my other thing is that i really protect my judges be they judging at our shows or myself stewarding for them, i will not allow them to be rudly spoken to or on one occasion even though i didnt particularly agree with the judge i was stewarding fors decsions, when a disgruntled competitor made verbal threats towards the judge via me i did step in make the judge aware and watched closley.... if only i had stewards when i judged that were willing to do the same for me.
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Buddy
Junior Member
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Post by Buddy on May 26, 2007 9:24:17 GMT
My personal opinion is that no one, whether they be parking attendant or judge should have to take abusive behaviour from anyone. I know competitors do get heated, especially after a very early start, long drive etc etc, but they should think before they spit. I am not saying that if the have a disagreement that they should air this, but if everyone did it in a positive manner things would be a lot better. A thank you to the Secretary goes a really long way.
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Post by solitaire on May 26, 2007 20:23:57 GMT
I would also defend my judge against a competitor if necessary. I was brought up in the age where you did not question the judges decision it really was final and still believe this is how it should be today, if you dont like the judges decision dont show under them again its so simple but i find the worst ones are the parents these days showing has become so money orientated these days and the fun is being lost - we need to bring back the fun - i do occassionally get asked to judge at a very local level and hope that i am considered fair and i always make a point of saying well done to everyone even the ones without a rosette - thankfully never been abused yet but i am sure it will happen one day
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Post by i wish on May 26, 2007 20:47:57 GMT
My comment about judges not judging friends meant genuine friends not just acquaintances or people we chat to around the ringside and if this was stopped there would be a much fairer system why ask for a debate and opinions if when we tell you you all give lots of excuses as to why that cannot be done
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Post by ednalad on May 26, 2007 21:20:44 GMT
I think this one speaks for itself.....you wouldnt( well i certainly wouldnt) put yourself or your friends in the situation of having to judge them from the start of any class.....and your friend shouldnt expect you the "judge" to judge them either.......
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Post by i wish on May 27, 2007 13:00:49 GMT
Sorry but this does happen all the time
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Post by johnwayne on May 28, 2007 16:46:25 GMT
Yes it does happen all the time, but I think that it is inevitable, given the small numbers of: a)judges/stewards b)competitors c)affiliated shows. If a judge wasn't able to judge a friend's pony, that would leave total unknowns (nothing wrong with that, but not usually the top ponies) or people whom the judge doesn't like, and if the judge can't be trusted to honestly judge friends , then why should they be trusted to honestly judge people they don't like? Also, how do you define 'friend'? It is (in my opinion) enough to say 'no' to exhibiting any pony previously owned/produced/with professional connections to the judge. It is always the exhibitors choice which classes to enter, the judge's prerogative to refuse to judge any particular animal, and any other competitor's right to submit an objection to the secretary. I wouldn't include farriers or vets in the 'professional connections'. I would not exclude organisers from exhibiting at their show - if they had the time. Maybe this could all be summed up by saying that we should all trust the judge's integrity. If we don't, we can stay out of that ring. . .
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Post by Common Sense on May 28, 2007 19:10:45 GMT
I really think its a case of common sense and not being blatant. Everyone needs to take responsibility for knowing their rule book and not putting themselves into positions where they can be criticized. Examples from last year and this. (These are my bug bears)
a) The ride judge at a very important showing show,talking to a few competitors / producers the night before the class she was to judge and having a drink with them. She even chatted to one producer whilst on a horse she was going to judge the following morning. This type of behavior from all concerned leaves the door wide open for moans, questions and doubt. Yes we've all been showing for a number of years, yes you see the same faces all the time and no you can't going around blanking people or talking in code just because they may be judging you today or next week, but please no need to be quite so blatant.
b) A producer putting a pony they produce to be judged by a mother of a client. No not actually against any rules, but come on. Its a delightful pony, its going to qualify and do well anyway, so why qualify under this judge?
c) A RIHS qualifier class being seriously delayed whilst the judge competed her horse in another ring. Again not against the rules, but in my opinion not good behavior and actually no need for this to happen. If you accept to judge, do that dedicate your time to judging and not to spreading yourself thin by doing two things.
Showing is an expensive "sport", there are more and more moans each week about persons integrity, and with tickets adding value, integrity is going to be questioned. I think that it is time that all societies had a good look at their rule books. Some rules have not been updated / amended for years, and now perhaps is the time to have a revamp, move with the times, make things clearer, whats right and whats not.
However in the meantime if we all acted with a bit of common sense and didn't push those rules right to the line, showing for me and I'm sure some others would be a happier place.
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