who would BE A JUDGE

[fairplayjones]

Is there any suggestions that we can come up with to improve the situation of judging. I know there are many judges out there that are bad, there are many that are corrupt, there are a few good ones but what if we could improved it in general.

1. league tables - what if competitors filled in an online form to rate judges.

2. what if hoys classes were split between produced and amateurs, (there are never enough pretty polly classes at usual shows)

3, What if the judge had to write a short comment on what he/she thought,

4. What if there was a wild card for amateur competitors that could qualify for Hoys due to an accumulated point system.

I have been showing for many many years, have seen it all and been victim to much of it. It would be nice to level the playing field a little.

[nobby]

I definately think that a points system would be a good idea for all qualifiers. I am finding judging is getting worse and worse and more unfair.

[halfpass]

points system just would not work as the only one who would say that they were fairly judged would be the winner, I think that what would be a good idea would be for all the qualifying shows to put all the placings and who the judge is onto a data base, that way you would be able to see who is putting who up and if one judge was putting the same competitor top more than would be normal,

[Hayche.]

Aug 11, 2008 19:34:33 GMT halfpass said:

points system just would not work as the only one who would say that they were fairly judged would be the winner, I think that what would be a good idea would be for all the qualifying shows to put all the placings and who the judge is onto a data base, that way you would be able to see who is putting who up and if one judge was putting the same competitor top more than would be normal,

Well if they really like that pony then its kinda obvs that they'd put it to win all the time!

[4emms]

Yes, but I can see what Halfpass is getting at - if several other judges see the quality in the same pony then it must be something special.
And anomalies like judge/producer & producer/ judge favours would be highlighted. It may make people think twice if it affects their reputation.

[Balvenie]

Aug 11, 2008 15:59:02 GMT fairplayjones said:

1. league tables - what if competitors filled in an online form to rate judges.

2. what if hoys classes were split between produced and amateurs, (there are never enough pretty polly classes at usual shows)

3, What if the judge had to write a short comment on what he/she thought,

4. What if there was a wild card for amateur competitors that could qualify for Hoys due to an accumulated point system.

Fairplayjones, as I've said before it is a small percentage of judges that are giving the rest of us a bad name. To address your points.
1 This would be unworkable as it would not reflect judges ratings fairly. You will get someone with a grudge against certain judges (for what ever reason) who will abuse thus system.

2. Whilst this is a fair idea you would get entry fees going up by huge amounts. Shows would need extra rossies, prize money etc.

3.At the end of the day it is the judges personal choice and therefore you will get people who don't agree no matter if the class was judges fairly or not. Also if you are judging say 8 or 9 classes at a show, when would you have time to write comments about every single competitor.

4.What sort of restrictions would there be? Most of the amateur classes are being abused with produced ponies and horse. Somehow a loop hole has been found and IMO people are grossly abusing them.

I honestly don't know what the answer is. No matter what you do the only person that will be happy,at shows, is the person that wins.

[thatsnotmyname]

I disagree that the only person that will be happy is the person who wins, I never mind being down the line to top class exciting ponies, but when ponies above you have wrong legged, napped, thrown heads, etc and yours does a foot perfect display and gets a worse mark it does start to wear a little thin.

I think we need to rethink how the classes are judged.

Let us all wake up and stop being naive about things, there is an awful amount of cheating taking place and it is easy to say "stand up, put your money where your mouth is, but who wants to be a whistle blower, you have to see these people every week.

Why don't the judges get together and come up with some solutions.

I would like to be a judge one day but like the person said who started the thread, Who would be one.

It is human nature to feel loyalty to someone you know, someone who has used your stud, it takes a strong person not to take these things into consideration.

Something has to be done, I hear so many people expressing a desire to move to workers because at least some part of that cannot be argued with.

[thatsnotmyname]

Also - thinking about writing a comment, I agree it would be a little wearing if you were judging 8- 9 classes, but what if it was used for just hoys classes as I think this is where the majority of people have a gripe, I remember being judged once and the judge commented all the way through on the microphone, I was very happy with this but have never seen it done since.

[chloesmum]

I used to think a 'wildcard' on a points system would be a good idea, we were 2nd so many times one season with a shp and never got our HOYS ticket. However, with the cost of diesel and entries most of us could probably not afford to do this and it would encourage people even more to drive up and down the country chasing qualifiers thus affecting the smaller shows.
Not sure what the answers are really - are there answers as I agree with medic it is very hard to please everyone, but also do echo thatsnotmyname as provided you have been judged fairly then most people feel happy - there will always be other lovely animals in all classes and being a judge is not an easy task and as already stated at the end of the day this is a personal choice - showing is subjective and always will be!

[fairplayjones]

Try this for another suggestion, what about a points system in your BSPS membership area, for the non produced.

When I started this thread it was only meant for Hoys qualifiers not all judging in general, I accept good bad and indifferent judging at county shows, it is only one persons opinion we are all entitled to, and if I was that bothered I would give up.

[Deleted]

I love judging and have great interest in all the m&m breeds which I judge- I can honestly say I only ever judge what I see in front of me on the day and pick which I think to be the best, now shoot me down if you like, but that is how I will continue. Everyone who knows me, know that I will judge like that and respect me for it- or so they tell me!

[Giddie]

I certainly would respect you for that cayberry, but why does personal choice and personal preference have to always come into this topic. As said numerous times before, surely personal choice and preference should only be used as a last resort when the class cannot be split, (which l should imagine is very rare)...and surely it should be weather the horse or pony is firstly correct for the class it has entered, has done correct show, demonstrates good manners, behaviour, confirmation etc etc etc long before personal preferences come into the acquation. I am amazed how this "personal preference" has so much power over a final decision.

I think if judges give a valid reason for their placing of a pony then one has to accept that, we also have to accept the fact thet they are only human as well and will sometimes make mistakes. It is those that come up with feeble excuses like as was said to me recently "Your pony is too flashy" UHM it is a Welsh Section A...in a in-hand Welsh Section A class.

I do have to say however we have had some very good judges in our area this year..Just a shame l haven't won a class yet in 2008 ..been constantly knocking on the door with 2nd and 3rds...but thats showing for you !!

[ellieraga]

cayberry, what would your opinion be if you had a mixed class that included m and m s as well as say show ponies , ie a first ridden class, would your heart go with a m and m or would you go for what went best on the day

[Deleted]

I am only a m&m judge- so that doesn't happen to me

[ellieraga]

thats a relieve then !! i wouldnt want to be put in that position as i look at some breeds and they just do not appeal to me at all and i would hate to have to judge them againest something that i favoured !! not a nice job to do whatever you judge

[Balvenie]

Aug 13, 2008 19:51:55 GMT ellieraga said:

cayberry, what would your opinion be if you had a mixed class that included m and m s as well as say show ponies , ie a first ridden class, would your heart go with a m and m or would you go for what went best on the day

Ellieraga, if a class was worded 'mixed' then i would personally go for the best that is before me. You have to be very open minded in these classes and put personal preferences aside. When i judge mixed classes, if it is the best it will win no matter if its show pony, shp, or m & m.

[chip]

Cayberry What would you do if you were involved in a championship or supreme championship with other judges, would you stick out for your M& Ms or would you go for the best in the ring? you say you only judge m&m but surely you must have been in this situation

[armada]

Aug 15, 2008 14:12:53 GMT chip said:

Cayberry What would you do if you were involved in a championship or supreme championship with other judges, would you stick out for your M& Ms or would you go for the best in the ring? you say you only judge m&m but surely you must have been in this situation

Even if they dont 'appeal' if they are a good example of their type/breed you are obliged to judge them fairly. We breed and show riding ponies, but if I'm judging a champ, and there are no particularly outstanding examples, then I wont just pick them because I keep show ponies. I am known for being quite strict on that criteria, and a cheesy kid on a pretty, but not particularly sparkling pony wont win the day if there is a super m&m under me.
I was however at the weekend in a particularly tight spot with a far less experienced judge than myself. In the championship there was a nice first ridden riding pony, which had been foot perfect all day and was nicely put together all round, a decent type of show hunter pony and the rest. I stated my case as to why I thought it was justified these two came forward as Champion and reserve above the others in the ring. The other judge wanted to bring an andalusian forward as champ because of the fact it had taken the trouble to come out all dressed up with pom-poms and all the gear on . She also liked the show hunter pony as reserve.
I said I did not think it muscled enough, or going well enough from what I had seen and was not prepared to agree, and added a few mediocre tricks performed in front of a crowd of largely uneducated people did not impress me one iota - having been a Prix St George rider in my younger years, felt I was well able to take an educated view.
They were all standing in line waiting and at the point I noticed my hands had begun to rest on my hips , agreed to compromise, the show hunter pony came in champ, the spanish horse reserve, and the nice little SP res res.
I have judged champs with this other judge 4 times already this year, and we have always agree'd, but this would have become a real row if I had'nt conceded, and I do not want to see judges arguing in the ring, let alone what impression it would give the finalists. It was not my finest moment, and was glad it was unaff and all that was at stake was a picture in the local riding mag and a little trophy. It was probably far more important to the finalists, and as a result I was not a happy bunny!! Less so when my fellow judge mounted said Andalusian when it was over and proceeded to be whip aided from the ground into experiencing a few of the tricks!
It did however, bring my attention to the fact that we all have different ideas and may not agree even with fellow judges, and as my own pony had been a compromise placing at the NPS champs due to a rather obvious difference of opinion between two judges (hands on hips and arguing with a lady judge - how rude sir!!), it can happen to anyone!
I try to give an honest appraisal of what I judge and am only too happy to explain my reasons for placing someone where I did if they ask (earlier in the day I had the pleasure of explaining to one person on the damage caused by using draw reins if one is inexperienced and how I knew exactly what had been going on).
Giving someone a prize just for turning up or because I know them is not on my agenda.
Unfortunately subjectivity is in a lot of peoples make-up and to try and eradicate it would be very difficult indeed.

[Giddie]

I was amazed the other day at a show when a Section B judge was judging a class stated that one pony didn't move right..In fact it was beautiful in it's movement and then pulled forward another and made it champion. That particular pony threw it's offside hind like nobody's buisness. It is this sort of judging that really annoys me as you can not tell me that an experienced judge of his so called calibre wasn't able to see that, it was deplorable..I then learnt that that particular judge was leasing the winners stallion !!! I think this is the type of thing that makes me mad. Thank god l chose not to show my own there that day.

[fallonstickledpink]

giddie, i agree. if a judge is going to do that sort of things, people will lose so much respect for him. When I started HOYS qualifiers I would never of believed that, but these days its becoming a trend. But the thing is, this facey judging isn't just in qualifiers anymore, its in local shows ?

[hollycane]

In order to have the level playing field that seems to be required here the system of judging as we know it would change in it's entirety from partially subjective to 100% objective as in showjumping. Currently all societies issue guidelines on type. They are not hard and fast rules.
So for example "a lightweight hunter should be capable to carry up to 12st 7lbs". It's all in the wording and is open to a judges interpretation which give rise to opinion.
A marks system is always open to abuse. It's widely acknowledged in dressage.
Comments spoken out loud, live are still only opinion and I for one would not like to have to voice my innermost thoughts about your darling beasties in public for fear of being lynched.

So a purely objective system, like showjumping would bring no benefits at all as the same animals would HAVE TO WIN all the time so most of you would give up because you still could get a red rosette.
Showing is an objective sport. Get over it, enjoy the subjectivity and opinion or stop moaning about judges all the time. It's their job to be subjective!!!

[wendbarry1]

Jul 26, 2009 22:08:15 GMT hollycane said:

Comments spoken out loud, live are still only opinion and I for one would not like to have to voice my innermost thoughts about your darling beasties in public for fear of being lynched.

Showing is an objective sport. Get over it, enjoy the subjectivity and opinion or stop moaning about judges all the time. It's their job to be subjective!!!

;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D
Us competitors are even keener to " voice my innermost thoughts about your darling beasties in public " I for one will now Forever hold my tongue and retreat to my lorry with a large drink ;D ;D ;D

[robertparkerjones]

Once again the talk is about judges being unfair or dishonest. I am on several judging panels and have been involved with horses and ponies for many years. Therefore I know lots of people iin the horse world. Having been an exhibitor and won when I didn't deserve to and vice versa haven't won when I should have I am particularly careful to do the right thing. When judging, performance and conformation are taken into account, type movement etc also. I am only interested in what goes on in the ring on the day, NOT ownership or producer or past performance. I often offer advice or constructive comment to try and assist and raise standards. I enjoy judging, find exhibitors polite and responsive. Will answer questions if asked politely. I often judge with other judges and can honestly say that I have found all my co judges to have similar values and standards as myself. We all have to accept disappointments graciously, listen to advice and try our best. We all started at the bottom and worked extremely hard to improve and achieve better results. Some do better than others but always strive for the highest standards and look home before blaming others. HAPPY SHOWING AND JUDGING!!!!!!!!

[shelleyj]

I have to say we showed in hand under Mr Parker Jones several years ago, were placed 3rd - he explained exactly what he did and didn't like about the pony and we came away very happy with the result, no complaints at all - very fair, straight and honest, wish there were more like him

[robertparkerjones]

Yes but, no but there are loads!!!!!!

[victoria (highhill)]

Well done Mr Parker Jones for coming on HG and posting under your own name rather than hiding behind a made up one! I cant believe there are many judges who would openly post on here

[dsmum]

I have seen some horrendous things. My view is that the judge should comment on each horse before the horses leave the ring. In the HOYS classes if your not put in the top 6-10 on the go round then you dont each get looked at let alone spoken to. Alternatively the judge could put a comment on the marks sheet. These classes cost a bomb and normally include huge travelling distances and cost - at least this way we would understand why we were placed in the position we were.

[wendbarry1]

Jul 30, 2009 15:59:44 GMT victoria (highhill) said:

Well done Mr Parker Jones for coming on HG and posting under your own name rather than hiding behind a made up one! I cant believe there are many judges who would openly post on here

;D ;DNice to see, isn't it ;D ;D

[Milliesmum]

It does make a refreshing change. It would be nice if more did it but I can understand why they wouldn't!

[Balvenie]

Would it stop the judge bashers???