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Post by carrie17491 on Mar 12, 2012 11:11:36 GMT
I have a naughty little colt with a foal sized head whom I want to do some natural horsemanship with and so wondered if anyone knew where I could get hold of a very small parelli halter, if such a thing does exist!
If not can anyone reccomend a different halter that could be used that comes in tiny sizes to enable the natural horsemanship type work to be effective? I need to teach space awareness and such.
Thank you
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Post by sageandonion on Mar 12, 2012 11:29:05 GMT
I would suggest getting in an IH representative to help/instruct you to begin with. Vitally important to get it right and also to have a correctly fitted and appropropriate halter.
Personally i wouldn't touch anything with the name parelli associated with it.
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Post by carrie17491 on Mar 12, 2012 11:30:55 GMT
Personally i wouldn't touch anything with the name parelli associated with it. Why is that? I have a friend on my yard who is very good with this sort of thing so I am going to ask her to give me a hand. She also knows someone who does this as a job which is fab! x |
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Post by sageandonion on Mar 12, 2012 11:39:37 GMT
I am afraid that if you are into parelli I had best not respond at all.
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Post by carrie17491 on Mar 12, 2012 11:57:01 GMT
I'm not, I'm open to ideas that's all. I never said that I was practising Parelli, I just want the halter that is made by them  |
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Post by sageandonion on Mar 12, 2012 12:02:20 GMT
carrie it isn't the halter that helps, but the way the halter is used and the training methods and the body language that goes with the halter. It is vital to have the correct training. It may well be that IH pressure halters are not made that small because it is not good for such a tiny pony to be trained that way. Have a chat with a professional. I presume this is for your 8 month old section A who must be so tiny you could do a lot of damage with any pressure halter if you do not know exactly what you are doing.
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Post by carrie17491 on Mar 12, 2012 12:18:12 GMT
carrie it isn't the halter that helps, but the way the halter is used and the training methods and the body language that goes with the halter. It is vital to have the correct training. It may well be that IH pressure halters are not made that small because it is not good for such a tiny pony to be trained that way. Have a chat with a professional. I presume this is for your 8 month old section A who must be so tiny you could do a lot of damage with any pressure halter if you do not know exactly what you are doing. He is tiny yes but he needs a method of training to help him be aware of my space etc and usually this is the method I turn to. I will have a chat though with an IH representative and see what they can suggest. |
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sarahp
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Post by sarahp on Mar 12, 2012 12:30:02 GMT
I totally agree with S&O, it's how you use the halter that matters rather than the bit of kit itself, do take the trouble to learn, you won't regret it. Like Shetlands, Welsh As do need to be treated like any other horse to instill proper manners.
I don't know the parelli one, but I won't have anything to do with any pressure halters that have studs along the inside of the headpiece as I have seen. Daughter uses a Richard Maxwell one which works well but I've no idea about the sizes available.
I breed Welsh As and use an ordinary rope halter with them from birth which works fine, and have been doing so long before MR brought IH to this country. As they are totally adjustable they go as small as you like, I've even used one on my old Charollais ram. Daughter says they don't release quickly enough for her, although of course you release the pressure you put on the halter, but they work for me - it's your technique and body language that is what makes them work. I find headcollars totally useless for handling anything that tries it on. Daughter had a "special needs" D gelding who came back to us after a non-ideal upbringing who would go anywhere he liked in a headcollar, towing you behind him, but knew perfectly well in the RM halter that he had to behave.
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Post by carrie17491 on Mar 12, 2012 12:34:10 GMT
That is interesting SarahP. I do have a rope halter for him for when I eventually show him. I guess I can always put it in the wash for shows ;D
I think I may try handling him in this around the yard etc and get him used to my space before we venture out again. Hold my hands up - that was a mistake! I am used to my filly though who is so easy going and not fazed by anything. The colt makes an issue out of everything - he is a male after all.
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sarahp
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Post by sarahp on Mar 12, 2012 12:53:57 GMT
I always start with the weaned foals in the yard - they come in at night which makes me handle them every day, even if only going a few steps to the field gate. You could even start in a box, you could get forwards and backwards and turns on the forehand in there, then yard, then I go round the garden with them, we aren't very precious about the lawn! And they must be 100% obedient, you need to be very consistent and do not tolerate bad manners.
But do please learn the techniques and body language first. They learn both good and bad habits very quickly at that age!
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Post by carrie17491 on Mar 12, 2012 12:58:53 GMT
He really doesn't like it when I am walking ahead for example - he's slowed down to look at something - and i walk towards him to get to his shoulder to walk him on. This is the point where he rears and runs back.....I don't know whether something has happened to him and he's got this memory of it....but it's getting to be a bit dangerous now
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Post by brookviewequine on Mar 12, 2012 13:23:46 GMT
Lisa at equi knots does everything associated with rope halters etc. you ll find some of her stuff on eBay. She's based in mold
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Post by carrie17491 on Mar 12, 2012 15:28:54 GMT
Lisa at equi knots does everything associated with rope halters etc. you ll find some of her stuff on eBay. She's based in mold thanks for that, I'll see about getting a rope halter off her for our ground work. |
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Post by carrie17491 on Mar 12, 2012 22:03:54 GMT
Had him in the rope halter tonight and just practiced him walking beside me but not near me and stopping when I stop. We also did the asking to go back with a wiggle and he was perfect. Also did some turning - the only way I can explain it is how you turn when showing in hand. I didn't have to touch him at any point and he totally respected my space.
Going to keep at it - didn't do too much though as I don't want his mind wandering.
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sarahp
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Post by sarahp on Mar 12, 2012 22:38:03 GMT
What's a wiggle? If this is parelli stuff I don't do it. Just putting on a halter isn't magic, you do have to know what to do with it.
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Post by carrie17491 on Mar 12, 2012 22:41:31 GMT
I know it isn't "magic". I know how to use a halter - a wiggle: you do small wiggles asking them to step back out your space and if they don't move you make your "wiggles" bigger.
We made progress. That's what counts.
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sarahp
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Post by sarahp on Mar 13, 2012 6:19:01 GMT
Well I use pressure/release, I don't know anything about wiggles.
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Post by carrie17491 on Mar 13, 2012 7:20:28 GMT
Oh right, it's as I explained above and it worked so this is the method I'll be using. It's very effective |
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Post by spidereyes on Mar 13, 2012 7:45:09 GMT
Any horse, NH trained or not, will back off from you if you shake a rope in its face!
I'm not getting drawn into the whole "Parelli" debate (I could go on for weeks) but I will say please please please do proper old fashioned ground work with your babies BEFORE you start with any sort of "natural" training.
I own a horse who was bought from a woman who "did Parelli". She "did Parelli" for four years straight with what was when she bought him a 3 year old. She did no classical training with him at all and as such he's now a 7 year old muscle man with no respect for anyone's space! He fears the rope alright but now he knows he's big enough and strong enough to tear it out your hands and purposefully attempt to do you harm. I get so frustrated at the utter irresponsibility of NH systems being sold to people as a magic route to perfect horses and supreme horemanship!
My big rude boy is currently away for professional schooling and re-breaking to fill in what he should have been taught as a baby. We made that decision after he caused me serious injury through his total lack of respect. No pressure halter makes any difference whatsoever to that animal because he's smart enough to have worked out that all you do is keep pulling and then you're in charge. It's frightening. I'm a firm believer in it being ansolutely essential that young horses are taught very firmly what is expected of them behaviour wise right from the beginning and that any sort of "games" or rope based waving carry on should be kept for when they already know the rules.
Tbh unless you are a cowboy I completely fail to see what is to be achieved with waving ropes around horses! But then again maybe that's because I own the result of when it's done by cluless people.
None of that is meant as any refelction on you, OP, it's just my experience.
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sarahp
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Post by sarahp on Mar 13, 2012 8:42:12 GMT
I use pressure/release techniques in my groundwork with my weaned foals, and as said above more than once it's the technique that makes the difference and not the bit of kit. Believe me, they respect my space! As I'm now getting long in the tooth and unstable due to being arthritic, it's not safe for me for them to do otherwise. I do so agree that they should learn the basics of good behaviour early on, and I'm constantly surprised by the bad behaviour some people tolerate in their animals. The techniques I use have been developed over a long life with horses, with major contributions from Monty Roberts and Richard Maxwell, along with a very talented friend who honed her own methods long before these were in the public eye - I believe many were originally used by the sort of old horsemen we no longer have around, along with some that we wouldn't like to see today. The use of at rope halters (at that stage the only halters available) was recommended to me by a Welsh breeder over 35 years ago, and once tried I never went back to headcollers. I don't rate Parelli either spidereyes, and sympathise over your horse. The bigger they are the more need for good manners for safety's sake, and it is much easier to get it right in the beginning than have to redo it later as you are having to do.
Off to start a new thread now rather than hijack this one!
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Post by network on Mar 13, 2012 9:57:23 GMT
I was foolishly convinced to try Parelli on a yearling section D that I bought some years ago, I bought all the kit and had a 'specialist' in parelli come out and show me how to use it. I ended up with a bulshy Section D who was absolutely terrified of the rope and very head shy. The wiggle you refer to Carrie is awful, if they dont listen to what you say on the first wiggle you have to wiggle harder and harder until you are smacking the pony in the face with a rope. I wouldnt go near Parelli with a barge pole now  |
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sarahp
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Post by sarahp on Mar 13, 2012 10:04:08 GMT
I did have a thought about wiggles while washing up, and have seen it used in a particular instance I would consider legitimate. Horses perceive a wriggling rope as a snake, and therefore something to be wary of, and a friend of mine uses this reaction to help solve a specific problem - that of a young horse being schooled to go in and out of the lorry who decides the ramp on the way down is far too scary and must not be trodden on but avoided by taking one huge leap to the ground. She wriggles the rope on the bottom of the ramp, well away from the horse, who then keeps his eye firmly on it, so head down low, and if asked to walk on (leading has already been done of course) will with luck walk down the ramp to keep his eyes on the "snake". You do of course need a very long rope here, usually a lungeline attached to the halter. A few goes like this and the ramp is no longer scary to walk down but routine, and note that the "snake" is not used to frighten the horse but only to engage its attention.
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Post by carrie17491 on Mar 13, 2012 10:05:13 GMT
I don't need to go that far with my though Desktop, I simply take a step towards him and say back and he goes back. I would never ever get to the point of hitting my horse in the face - that I don't agree with.
I am using a welsh show halter when doing the ground work with him, most of Parelli I don't agree with but the games are great and I love join up.
I found last night really educational for me as I listened to my horse rather than forcing him to listen to me, maybe that's where a lot of people go wrong.
I won't be buying any Parelli kit though, as I say most of it I don't agree with and would never hit my horse in the face - the buckles on those ropes are huge too and I personally think it's cruel to use them to get them to go back when you can teach them in other ways. I did notice that he wasn't comfortable with the "wiggles" so once I saw this I tried stepping towards him and saying "back". This worked so much better and he was a lot more relaxed, engaged and interested in me.
We then had a game of tig ;D
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sarahp
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Post by sarahp on Mar 13, 2012 10:09:12 GMT
Cross posted desktop.
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Post by carrie17491 on Mar 13, 2012 10:17:21 GMT
I agree SarahP. The use of the rope halter is far more effective than a normal headcollar.
He thought about going up again last night. I had him in the rope halter, as I say he thought about it....and didn't. I assume it was because of the pressure. When he started to behave the pressure released. He didn't try it again all the time we were in the paddock.
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sarahp
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Post by sarahp on Mar 13, 2012 10:20:35 GMT
Hurrah! The secret is in the timing of the release. A "proper" one will release the pressure better, but if you can't find one of those small enough the rope one is an acceptable substitute.
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Post by carrie17491 on Mar 13, 2012 10:38:54 GMT
i have to double check that it has actually released because it's just a simple rope halter.
I am on the hunt for a proper one though, it's just finding one small enough :/ He seems to get the jist of it and it's surprising how quickly they pick up on what you are asking of them!
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Post by network on Mar 13, 2012 11:19:03 GMT
I don't need to go that far with my though Desktop, I simply take a step towards him and say back and he goes back. I would never ever get to the point of hitting my horse in the face - that I don't agree with. I am using a welsh show halter when doing the ground work with him, most of Parelli I don't agree with but the games are great and I love join up. I found last night really educational for me as I listened to my horse rather than forcing him to listen to me, maybe that's where a lot of people go wrong. I won't be buying any Parelli kit though, as I say most of it I don't agree with and would never hit my horse in the face - the buckles on those ropes are huge too and I personally think it's cruel to use them to get them to go back when you can teach them in other ways. I did notice that he wasn't comfortable with the "wiggles" so once I saw this I tried stepping towards him and saying "back". This worked so much better and he was a lot more relaxed, engaged and interested in me. We then had a game of tig ;D So you are not actually using Parelli but common sense  join up is a very natural thing to do with horses, I do it all the time with mine but that has nothing to do with Parelli. Unfortunately Sarahp I dont think the wiggle is meant to refer to a snake, if you are using the correct parelli kit, the rope has a very very heavy metal clip that attaches to the halter, so when you 'wiggle' the rope the metal clip bangs against the horses jaw, the harder you wiggle the harder the metal clip bangs the jaw  a nasty piece of kit in my opinion. |
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Post by carrie17491 on Mar 13, 2012 11:54:52 GMT
I agree Desktop, hence why I won't use it. Why would you want to make your horse shy away?!!! I don't get it. I love trying to understand them and forming a partnership with them. I just need to get into the colts way of thinking then I can understand how to train him. He just needs to learn this is my space and that is yours, I will ask you to come into it, you don't decide and vice versa He did really well last night and didn't invade my space at all so going to have another go at it tonight. There were even distractions of my mare being in the walker next to the paddock and he was interested in me!!! He's a well behaved colt but just not been handled much so fingers crossed |
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sarahp
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Post by sarahp on Mar 13, 2012 11:55:52 GMT
I don't do Parelli in any shape or form, so I'm not up in their equipment, just making comments on what any wriggly rope will mean to a horse at any time! What Parelli intend by it I wouldn't know - the clip sounds horrid. When talking about the unloading above, it's only a length of ordinary rope and not attached to the horse in any way, just used to get their attention in the right way to aid learning to unload gently.
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join up is a very natural thing to do with horses, I do it all the time with mine but that has nothing to do with Parelli. Unfortunately Sarahp I dont think the wiggle is meant to refer to a snake, if you are using the correct parelli kit, the rope has a very very heavy metal clip that attaches to the halter, so when you 'wiggle' the rope the metal clip bangs against the horses jaw, the harder you wiggle the harder the metal clip bangs the jaw 
a nasty piece of kit in my opinion.