The Welsh over breeding problem.

[how caring]

May 20, 2012 22:50:12 GMT penbayr said:

I have actually never bought any animal from a sale, but there are hundreds who do, and not every pony who is entered at the sales comes from a big stud or a pony farmer. Being well handled does not mean they will bring a good price, look at the very nice stallion, broken to saddle and harness, who recently sold for 200 pounds.
It's fairly obvious you are going to defend your right to add to the overbreeding problem to the death. You go for it, if you can live with the possibility of your cute little foal ending up neglected or dead then that's great. I will stick to the argument that every foal born adds to the problem, whether it comes from a big stud or a small one. You people obviously don't think there is an overbreeding problem within the welsh breed, or if you do, why are you still breeding them?

Precisely. Every foal is adding to the problem. Add up all the small welsh pony studs, how many foals born already this season? now take away from that sum how many child riders there are waiting for a ridden pony in the future and see how many youngsters are left unwanted in the equation. Then next years and last years ponies come into the equation too, it's never ending.

Even if people stopped breeding for a couple of years, it would help the situation, it seems breeders will keep on defending their actions and are, in fact, living in denial to the current crisis. Well bred or not it ensures nothing.

[Not just Welshies]

Actually quite tired of hearing Welsh ponies and breeders being slated.
We all know this is a problem, as it is with race horses.
But in the grand scheme of things, everything is over produced, including human beings!
I think the human race as so badly bred as we all think it's fine to pop out children willy nilly and everyone else has to pay for the health problems of those poorly bred off spring.
If my parents were horses, no way would you breed from them, both with bad conformation and health problems, but thats ok isn't it, because we are a supreme race that can pro creat without any thought what so ever for the fact that we are causing our own downfall.
Put a Welsh pony in foal and there is hell to pay, "poor little things, what life will it have?" but its ok for people with no job, home or income, terrible health issues and drug habits to "pop one out" without a second glance.......

Monday morning rant over...

[how caring]

May 21, 2012 7:32:14 GMT @Not just Welshies said:

Actually quite tired of hearing Welsh ponies and breeders being slated.
We all know this is a problem, as it is with race horses.
But in the grand scheme of things, everything is over produced, including human beings!
I think the human race as so badly bred as we all think it's fine to pop out children willy nilly and everyone else has to pay for the health problems of those poorly bred off spring.
If my parents were horses, no way would you breed from them, both with bad conformation and health problems, but thats ok isn't it, because we are a supreme race that can pro creat without any thought what so ever for the fact that we are causing our own downfall.
Put a Welsh pony in foal and there is hell to pay, "poor little things, what life will it have?" but its ok for people with no job, home or income, terrible health issues and drug habits to "pop one out" without a second glance.......

Monday morning rant over...

But human over breeding isn't the topic? Welsh pony breeding, is!

[poneydestiny]

Here is a link on Facebook - 128 semi feral "pure" welsh ponies FREE! Keep up the great work Hill Societies (3 involved in that specific area where this herd is found) we notice the vanner cobs mixed in, and have taken note of the rampant breeding by many stallions and colts of a few mares, killing newborn foals in the birthing process. The Hill Societies are overseen by the WPCS - what a terrific advertisement for the "pure lines" under the Hill schemes and the total dedication of the WPCS to the valorisation of the breed. Current market prices attest to the shambles that reigns at the moment - with people not protesting at the sources of the problems but rather happy when Brightwells reduces entry fees at sales (!!!) an unbelievable debacle at the moment with no one taking the reins
www.facebook.com/#!/groups/Welshrehome/

[poneydestiny]

Not sure the link took - it is a group called welsh ponies rehoming project regarding ponies on gelligaer and merthyr commons
www.facebook.com/#!/groups/Welshrehome/

[penbayr]

Exactly how caring, we are talking about welsh ponies not people. Having said that, if you could control the breeding of people 'not just welsh' it sounds as though you would. Just like the control of breeding welshies should be curtailed for a while. No-one is saying people should never breed another welsh pony, but if people would back off for a few years until the balance is re-established less ponies would be sold for peanuts or for dog food. Why is it so difficult to halve the number of mares you serve each season??? If everyone did this it would make a huge difference

[sometime]

I agree fully with the call for fewer foals to be bred and the resulting waste but to be honest the over sentimentalization of the fact it is ponies that are going for meat and to the zoo as food I find a little distasteful. No they should not be bred, If they are for so called conservation reasons then they should go direct to a licensed and controlled abattoir and enter the food chain in the same way as lambs and cattle. with the same rigorous and careful data checking.
What I personally find so difficult is the idea that a pony can be bought for less than a large bar of chocolate and treated with similar indifference that small life is a huge responsibility and expensive and dangerous toy for a child that needs a huge amount of commitment not just a square of lawn or a garden shed

[how caring]

May 21, 2012 9:21:48 GMT sometime said:

I agree fully with the call for fewer foals to be bred and the resulting waste but to be honest the over sentimentalization of the fact it is ponies that are going for meat and to the zoo as food I find a little distasteful. No they should not be bred, If they are for so called conservation reasons then they should go direct to a licensed and controlled abattoir and enter the food chain in the same way as lambs and cattle. with the same rigorous and careful data checking.
What I personally find so difficult is the idea that a pony can be bought for less than a large bar of chocolate and treated with similar indifference that small life is a huge responsibility and expensive and dangerous toy for a child that needs a huge amount of commitment not just a square of lawn or a garden shed

And that, Sometime, is caused by overbreeding ponies being available so cheaply now that every numpty and their dog own a pony, without any knowledge and a whole load of ignorance.

[sarahp]

If more of the sub standard ones went direct to proper abattoirs as sometime said, and I support, they would not be going through sales for peanuts to end up in garden sheds, and the supply:demand ratio would be on the way to being corrected.

[how caring]

And if less people bred, less sub standard animals would be born in the first place. Why should any pony be going for meat in the UK, we don't eat it here. Breeding to feed zoo lions, and that is not just sub standard ponies either, for your information! Some of those lions will have experienced quality blood too.

What is wrong with people? Why breed at all, why not take a year or 2 or 3 out, let things level out? Even the Dartmoor Hill ponies are trialling a contraceptive injection for the mares, so the stallions can be kept entire for when they are needed again. Why can't you, as private breeders take time out?

Oh how we all love foal photographs though. Very sad times, with so many people in denial. Quality or not, there are too many around. How much suffering will it take before eyes are open?

[fanfarefan]

iam not a breeder , and never will be as i dont have my own facilities , but have been at the same yard for 27 yrs , ----- 4 years ago i ended up at a dealers yard --and not a very nice one (but thats another story) when i was noseing about , i noticed the most pathetic pot bellied thing in a stable with a bossy mare , all the stables had 2-3 animals init , even big horses ,iasked the dealer what it was , and she refered to him as 'oh scarecrow ' ,he was 9months old and had come in a part of a deal !!!!! yes youve guessed it i came home with him , having paid £100 ,---- no passport , that would follow !!!!!! and yes it did 6 weeks later , she happened to bump into the traveller who bought him in . having got the passport i did a bit of digging , and found oput that he was sold at the sales at weaning , sold immediately through the internet ,bought by the travellers , sold to the dealer , and then i bought him , by which time he was only nine months old , and yes he is a registered welsh, good breeding , and a lovely pony ---- but should he have gone through all of that at such a young age . The breeder sent several to the sales that year , and has continued to do so ,---- ok breed for a known market , but indescriminant breeding should be curtailed----- for the price that these animals make at the sales its not profitable , so why keep doing it ?

[arabellaphoenix]

I think there has been a lot of good points made on this thread, but, as people have said, the market is flooded with ponies which are being bred by irresponsible breeders, many of whom are breeding poor quality and in large quantities. Who is going to tell them to stop breeding? Will they listen? It's all well and good telling small, responsible breeders that they should stop or cut down on breeding but will the problem of over breeding stop because of this when the irresponsible people will carry on breeding anyway?

[sometime]

Yes it will. It will create a two tier market with the poor quality ponies suffering and the quality ponies being a very rare animal indeed if only the responsible stop breeding. I have said over and over again I dont breed welshies anymore I used to but I gave up 17 years ago when there was a smaller and smaller market and they decreased significantly in value.
I did breed a highland for myself but they are a rare breed and as she is a filly will possibly one day contribute to saving the breed from extinction although now they are much more popular that is unlikely now to happen any time soon but fashions change.
The huge numbers of poor unregistered and low quality foals that make it in batches through numerous sales only to either finally end up as lion dinner or neglected and abused because they hold no value are ones that should be treated as meat animals carefully recorded so they are never in the position of being hurt like cattle and sheep even ear tag them if necessary.
Sentimentality is the biggest problem all round both by those saying stop it is too much and no foals should be bred sho ever you are and those that breed because they like foals with no thought to their future and all those in between.
By all means breed for yourself if your circumstances change you have no choice and should not breed anymore until they either change back again or improve
Markets can only support a few small ponies sadly small children no longer want to ride we dont have childrens tv that encourages horsey activities and it is a shame that a lot of parents are so precious that their children are not allowed to get dinted , scratched bumped or broken by what is perceived to be a dangerous sport. They of course are very happy to strap them in a killing machine and drive them to school though
Much better they sit in front of a tv or monitor than actually get wet dirty or injured. Most kids are pasty faced whimps with streaming noses and will eventually have atrophied legs due to lack of exercise. Simple fresh air and fun things to do outside would go a long way to improving the pony situation and the childrens situation. But that has all fallen apart on the litigious society we live in so insurance is exorbitant for riding schools for fear of every one suing.

[sometime]

As an aside when my granddaughter was a toddler I searched high and low for a waterproof coat for her but apparently children dont get wet anymore they must just get carried fro door to car It makes my blood boil but hey ho not my problem I am an old fart that would like to see a lot of things change

[arabellaphoenix]

But these poor quality ponies are already being sold for pittance, if the irresponsible breeders are obviously happy now to sell them at these prices what is going to stop them?

[sarahp]

Pleased to say that when son with three small sons of his own comes to visit they have to go down to the woods here, play in the stream in their Wellies building dams and sailing boats while son lights a camp fire and cooks chipolata sausages and toasts marshmallows. He and eldest even pitched a tent and slept in it one night. Don't lose all hope sometime! But sadly not a bit interested in the ponies.

[sometime]

Sadly nothing short of enforcing legislation that already exists and making sure the passport and tracing elements are all in order only a vet should be allowed to do the registration and microchipping any foal without a microchip should be refused at any sale. Every entry should be checked against its paperwork and microchip and ponies should be treated as farm animals with enormous fines for any irregularities and either refused entry to a sale yard or taken direct to slaughter at a local abattior as fallen stock
Wont happen though as too many back pocket people are in the know as to how to get round them and ponies are not classed as farm animals but domestic pets when it suits the authorities

[sometime]

Pleased to hear it Sarahp

[sarahp]

Don't forget the derogation sales sometime when ponies can go to the sale not having been chipped, registered and passported. If going for slaughter this does not have to be done, if sold not for slaughter it does on the day at buyers' expense. Derogation is for various groups of feral ponies, I know Welsh Hill ponies but I think NF and Dartmoor Hill Ponies too.

Don't vets have to microchip anyway although established breeders are trusted to fill in their own descriptions, which are of course checked against the pony by the vet when microchipping? Not all vets are that good at the descriptions anyway!

[sometime]

Yes but it would be much better if even these were traceable in the same way as farm animals

[penbayr]

As far as I can see, the problem comes back to Trading Standards failing to do their job and ensuring all these animals are chipped and passported. They say they don't have the staff to do this, well hire more people, this is your job!!! The situation has become overwhelming because TS have been slack in their duties for years, so it's their own fault. If the people who are breeding large numbers of unregistered animals had to actually catch them and handle them and pay for chipping and passporting them they might think twice before they let the stallions loose with the mares. The problem is multi-faceted, and there is no quick and easy solution to the problem

[lisadundee]

May 21, 2012 21:06:43 GMT penbayr said:

As far as I can see, the problem comes back to Trading Standards failing to do their job and ensuring all these animals are chipped and passported. They say they don't have the staff to do this, well hire more people, this is your job!!! The situation has become overwhelming because TS have been slack in their duties for years, so it's their own fault. If the people who are breeding large numbers of unregistered animals had to actually catch them and handle them and pay for chipping and passporting them they might think twice before they let the stallions loose with the mares. The problem is multi-faceted, and there is no quick and easy solution to the problem

yes it's easy to throw a stallion out with a bunch of mares and leave them to survive and then when the foals are ready herd them in to a wagon and to a sale, if everyone had to handle each foal, worm it, have its feet trimmed, lead it, tie it up and teach it basic manners plus the passport and microchipping! I doubt there would be as many people breeding!

[catkin]

The thread gets more interesting!

My children do ride, they do get dirty and they don't watch telly all day long. Far from perfect in many ways, but not in the minority some of you would think!

One of my children shows to quite a high standard and in order to furnish her with the right sort of animal we do indeed buy youngstock (as I cannot afford the made ones). The current one came from Fayre Oaks and from a small but quality stud. We'd already had a sister so felt confident in the temperament as well judging the quality of the animal on the day.

My son who is far more gung ho has a wonderful 18 year old cradle stakes pony. A saint and hard to find. He is in fact a section A from an old, well established yet small stud.

I am absolutely certain that both the conformation and talent of these ponies combined with their 'rideable' temperaments is directly related to the careful and selective breeding of these small, quality studs.

I in no way condone (in fact abhor) uncontrolled and unmanaged breeding BUT once again, I must reiterate that its important for many of us that these studs continue.

Most of the small stud owners I know take a personal interest in each and every one of the ponies they breed and will happily care for them until they are required for another job (or not). The uncontrolled breeders cannot be compared with this group and in most cases, are not breeding what we want for riding anyway.

I think you have to seperate the two groups when making observations on overbreeding.

That said, the fact remains that there is a huge over supply of 'lower quality' animals and anything we can do to stop this must be a good thing. I just don't believe that smaller breeders cutting down any more than they have already is the answer. If I cannot find the sort of quality animal I want from a better stud, it doesn't mean I will buy one from lower down the food chain, so to speak.

[sometime]

Your children are very lucky a to have a mum who is interested in them and the outdoors and b in having the lifertyle that lets them have freedoms I would guess they are in a minority in fact I know they are there will be very few children even in their class at school that have ponies and probably not many that are even encouraged to go out and play
No slight on you or any other mother on here that thinks like that but too many have neither the time or interest to make sure their children lead a healthy lifestyle.
Look in any poorer area and you will find children eating rubbish/food and never leaving the house even though it is cheaper to eat well in the main
In working families again some not all you will find a similar scenario where the kids are parked in front of screens as it is easier while you get on with work and wealthy families where the kids are an accessory brought out on high days and holidays and the rest of the time are again supplied with material goods rather than making an effort to give them a rounded education. Schools too take a share of the blame as they are into homework from an early age that involves paper and pencil or a computer.
I know I am getting old but the best homework for a child is a prize for the child that can collect and press the most wild flowers. or photograph the most birds etc
When I was a child we were paid a nominal sum per pound for collecting rosehips in season to be made into rosehip syrup we had competitions to see who could pick the most and get the most pennies

[nia2311]

On a slight digression, schools don't do much to encourage kids to have hobbies. My son's teacher cannot tell the time. School is meant to end at 3.30, but if she stops yapping before 3.45 it's a good day. The kids filter out between 3.45-4pm. How are we supposed to keep riding lessons (at 4.30pm) when she can't be arsed letting them out?? We have spoken to her, and other kids are in the same boat with gym, swimming etc.

In addition, she expects one piece of written homework every single week. This takes valuable time away from the yard etc etc and if we are showing, it doesn't get done. Surely going out and doing a hobby to a high standard is more important that making a timeline of the Second World War???

Why can't schools just understand kids have other demands on their time - especially in primary school. My son is 9 by the way.

He doesn't take his rosettes to show in school anymore as they aren't interested (they are in swimming badges, though!) Grrrrrr.

[how caring]

May 22, 2012 15:49:09 GMT nia2311 said:

On a slight digression, schools don't do much to encourage kids to have hobbies. My son's teacher cannot tell the time. School is meant to end at 3.30, but if she stops yapping before 3.45 it's a good day. The kids filter out between 3.45-4pm. How are we supposed to keep riding lessons (at 4.30pm) when she can't be arsed letting them out?? We have spoken to her, and other kids are in the same boat with gym, swimming etc.

In addition, she expects one piece of written homework every single week. This takes valuable time away from the yard etc etc and if we are showing, it doesn't get done. Surely going out and doing a hobby to a high standard is more important that making a timeline of the Second World War???

Why can't schools just understand kids have other demands on their time - especially in primary school. My son is 9 by the way.

He doesn't take his rosettes to show in school anymore as they aren't interested (they are in swimming badges, though!) Grrrrrr.

They aren't interested as ponies are still seen as a rich persons sport. Sadly not the case. However, am i reading the above correctly? You value your childs time at the yard more than their education? As that is how it reads to me! Of course hobbies are important, but what is one piece of written work?

On another note, most people say its the large breeders churning out poor quality, hang on a minute - so what about the Criccieth Stud and the likes? Now, how many people are after those bloodlines or ponies? And, when you think about it many of the "big" breeders are ones who have the quality lines. Whilst smaller breeders actually, do not always have stock worth writing home about. I have seen threads on this forum, where people have gone ape about certain studs, the bigger studs, but on the same token buying those ponies...so, which is it?!

[Milliesmum]

May 22, 2012 16:52:40 GMT @how caring said:

May 22, 2012 15:49:09 GMT nia2311 said:

On a slight digression, schools don't do much to encourage kids to have hobbies. My son's teacher cannot tell the time. School is meant to end at 3.30, but if she stops yapping before 3.45 it's a good day. The kids filter out between 3.45-4pm. How are we supposed to keep riding lessons (at 4.30pm) when she can't be arsed letting them out?? We have spoken to her, and other kids are in the same boat with gym, swimming etc.

In addition, she expects one piece of written homework every single week. This takes valuable time away from the yard etc etc and if we are showing, it doesn't get done. Surely going out and doing a hobby to a high standard is more important that making a timeline of the Second World War???

Why can't schools just understand kids have other demands on their time - especially in primary school. My son is 9 by the way.

He doesn't take his rosettes to show in school anymore as they aren't interested (they are in swimming badges, though!) Grrrrrr.

They aren't interested as ponies are still seen as a rich persons sport. Sadly not the case. However, am i reading the above correctly? You value your childs time at the yard more than their education? As that is how it reads to me! Of course hobbies are important, but what is one piece of written work?

On another note, most people say its the large breeders churning out poor quality, hang on a minute - so what about the Criccieth Stud and the likes? Now, how many people are after those bloodlines or ponies? And, when you think about it many of the "big" breeders are ones who have the quality lines. Whilst smaller breeders actually, do not always have stock worth writing home about. I have seen threads on this forum, where people have gone ape about certain studs, the bigger studs, but on the same token buying those ponies...so, which is it?!

I fail to see how anyone breeding on the scale of 'criccieth and the likes' can keep track of what stallion or colt is covering what mare and what the true bloodlines of any given foal are.

Not always what it says on the paperwork is my suspicion.

So buying from the 'big' breeders I'd be wanting DNA to make sure I was getting what I though I was getting - not always possible at a dispersal sale?

[how caring]

I don't know about Criccieth i just used that as an example as many people on here will have also read threads and own such ponies.

But, there are indeed large scale studs who knows exactly who the foals are by, it's not that hard if you have the land and facilities to do it, is it?

So many put the big studs down, but come on look at all the little studs trying to breed the next big thing, sadly all to often it doesn't happen, just look on various forums/sales websites it is these small studs selling off their foals cheaply! Little breeders trying to be the next big thing in the welsh world and there are hundreds of those "studs".

[how caring]

May 22, 2012 17:14:35 GMT @how caring said:

I don't know about Criccieth i just used that as an example as many people on here will have also read threads and own such ponies.

But, there are indeed large scale studs who knows exactly who the foals are by, it's not that hard if you have the land and facilities to do it, is it?

So many put the big studs down, but come on look at all the little studs trying to breed the next big thing, sadly all to often it doesn't happen, just look on various forums/sales websites it is these small studs selling off their foals cheaply! Little breeders trying to be the next big thing in the welsh world and there are hundreds of those "studs".

Also to add to that, i know a few large studs who have the colts gelded asap, infact one stud i have never seen a colt near the place unless it is being saved for the future which is very rare. Not all large studs are just turning them all loose in one big field, where do people get that idea from? As i have never seen it.

Some studs will use universities to do mass geldings.

[magalong]

The problem with overbreeding seems much worse now as many people do not have the money to buy youngstock but the reality is there has been overbreeding for years.
I have heard that the situation we are now in could improve breeds as only good stock will breed and no one will breed with inferior stock.
My opinion is that the exact opposite could happen.
We know many who breed Welsh ponies and cobs some with 5 - 10 mares and a lot of these are lovely animals with excellent breeding - many of these responsible owners have made the decision either not to breed at all or to put one or two of the best mares in foal. On the other hand we know some with ponies of fair quality who still put everything in foal in the hope of breeding one or two good ponies.
The result of this could be that what we will see is an increase in inferior stock.
I think registration fees need to be looked at - maybe if a breeder has say 5 or less foals in a year they pay a nominal registration fee after that the fees should increase greatly. I know this would be difficult for the larger studs who breed as their livelyhood but then the large well know breeders ofter charge large prices for their stock.
It does seem a bit unfair that everyone points their finger at the Welsh breeders but there are a lot of little Welsh ponies unwanted in the sales but there is also a real problem with the coloured horses as well especially in the South Wales area.