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Post by frozzy on May 17, 2012 21:03:33 GMT
I was reading the "birth" announcements on another forum and given the fact that you can buy a lorry load of weanling colts for £50 why did I feel disquiet at the fact a stud was announcing the arrival of its sixth foal? Also the statement that they would all be for sale at weaning.
Why add to the problem?
I know myself and friends have discussed the wish to breed from our lovely mares and for two with good breeding who are now 22 and 24 the time is limited and they are unlikely to have any more foals. I have a lovely stallion who for the forseeable future will only be ridden not covering. If not for the fact he is so quiet and a real gentleman I would geld him, but as he is no problem in his entire state he will stay entire.
Six may not sound a lot when considering the amounts the commercial breeders are still producing but it all adds to the problem of unwanted ponies.
I was looking at an american site of lovely ponies, but not any better than the UK bred ponies and this years foals are on the market for $3000 upwards.!
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Milliesmum
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Post by Milliesmum on May 17, 2012 21:17:09 GMT
I don't have a problem with anyone breeding if it's a foal that they want. But today I've seen a foal on FB, a few days old, for sale at weaning. WHY?  ? If you don't want it, don't breed it for goodness sake - what makes you think that if you don't want it someone else will? Its so sad and it makes me really angry, especially as most of the 'for sale at weaning' ones are colts, do people not realise there's a 50% chance they won't get a filly? |
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sarahp
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Post by sarahp on May 17, 2012 21:47:20 GMT
Is it adding to the problem if they are top class foals with a home until someone comes along for them? 6 due here this year - 3 born so far and none of those are for sale at weaning. One was supposed not to be mine but I have ended up with it, fortunately she had what I would have ordered if given the chance, and the other two D mares due are 23 and 20 respectively; these will be their last foals. Borrowed stallion covered my two As last year, one from a 14yo mare I haven't had long from whom I wanted a filly to keep to continue her bloodline - her sire sired her when he was 27yo and to my knowledge she is the only breeding daughter left. The other is a 10yo mare and this is her second foal so hardly over doing it! Daughter decided to take the opportunity to cover her A mare while we had this stallion, first foal for both mare and daughter and no more currently planned.
I have never bred just to automatically sell - I have 8 A mares, two foaled this year and the young stallion will cover two this year to see what he throws. Of the rest, 1 is retired, 2 are lent out and being ridden, and the other three are just sitting about doing nothing but I have no problem with that. One I would sell if anyone came for her, one is backed and I'd lend out if asked by the right home and the other I may well have backed this year too.
It's not small, caring breeders that are the problem but those churning out masses of stock of questionable standard.
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Post by lisadundee on May 17, 2012 21:56:39 GMT
None of mine were to be for sale at weaning but I've no choice now I'm pregnant, I'm struggling and when I covered the mares last year I was told I wouldn't be able to have any more children so I was confident I would be able to cope, I have a very well bred mare with foal at foot for sale and two foals, all three foals are fillys, I will be putting the only mare I'm keeping back in foal but to a homozygous WB stallion to breed a sports horse for myself which by the time it's ready to be broken my baby will be just starting school!
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Post by Sam on May 19, 2012 7:57:13 GMT
Unfortunately i am one of those "breeders", all mine will be sold at weaning, if not run on. Got 6 to foal and one already on the ground who will be going to some people who have bought before off me, I enjoy the breeding, seeing the foals and what colours they come out, (breed coloureds and Apps). Fortunately i have the ground and finances to keep them on until they are sold, also have 5 over the age of 20 so do care about my lot.
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Post by how caring on May 19, 2012 8:22:38 GMT
I'm sorry but if people really cared, well bred or not they would not breed, seriously how many more welsh ponies do you think we need in this country?
How many homes, compared to pony numbers do you really think there are? It is crazy to breed at the moment, regardless of bloodlines or how cute those foals are, or how much you enjoy seeing them and, as this is the moaners area, yes i am having a moan.
There is absolutely no need what so ever to be breeding more into an already flooded market, whether you think you can run them on or not, who knows what is around the corner, prgnancy, redundancy, illness then what? Do you flog them cheaply at the next sale?
I'm sorry but each and every breeder is responsible for what is an equine crisis right here in the UK and there is no excuse what so ever to add to it.
Everyone rants on about dogs, Staffys and the like being overbred and how irresponsible dog breeders are....well look at the poor excuses for breeding here? the welsh ponies are hardly a rare breed, though quality is.
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sarahp
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Post by sarahp on May 19, 2012 8:38:34 GMT
Have you looked in the wanted section here and seen how many people are looking for small childrens' ponies? Any I have for sale are on my website as such and normally go without me taking any more action than that, bearing in mind that I am happy to run them on. Buyers know they have been carefully bred specifically to ride, and properly brought up, handled etc which they would not necessarily get from a cheap sale. Most buyers are still in touch with me and enjoying their ponies.
I bet proper, responsible breeders of KC registered Staffies feel the same about the backstreet breeders of dodgy crosses going by the name of "Staffies" as serious and responsible pony breeders do. Your last three words are the telling part of your last post.
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Post by how caring on May 19, 2012 8:44:40 GMT
Yes, quality is sparce however- that does not mean everyone should breed. The small studs should carry alot of the blame, there are hundreds of them throughout the UK so even with 5 or 6 foals a year, it is far too many. Everyone i know is a breeder!
There are no excuses.
Yes people are looking for good first ponies, how many first ponies are 6 months old?
How many first ponies are selling at £500? it's a shambles and all the time people make crumby excuses it wont get any better.
Everyone is moaning about the market, the breeders are at the core of many equine welfare issues right now, whether you like that or not!
Roll on the day when the WPCS actually get off their backside and stop thinking about how much money they can make out of registrations and put the breed first. I'm not here to make friends, the only thing i care about are those ponies.
"I like having foals", "I like seeing what colour they are born" are not justifiable reasons for adding to the problem. Wake up!
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sarahp
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Post by sarahp on May 19, 2012 9:21:59 GMT
Of course not. And who is saying that first ponies are 6 months old? Certainly not me! But some people do buy them younger to break and bring on themselves, and any left here as 3/4 yo will be broken.
I hold no brief for the WPCS, but measures to increase the interest in geldings are being taken to encourage members to geld their colts, and 2011 registrations are down to 93% of their 2010 level and 71% of the 2009 level so some notice is being taken of the current situation.
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kayjayem
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Post by kayjayem on May 19, 2012 20:29:02 GMT
Yes, quality is sparce however- that does not mean everyone should breed Everyone is moaning about the market, the breeders are at the core of many equine welfare issues right now, whether you like that or not! "I like having foals", "I like seeing what colour they are born" are not justifiable reasons for adding to the problem. Wake up! I can see where you are coming from and agree that there are far too many welshies being bred but this is down to a core of "pony farmers". Regarding your first comment about not everyone should breed, that is quite true but this does not mean that no-one should! As for "everyone moaning about the market", I'm not!!! I have been selectively breeding for over 30 years from old established bloodlines with performance in mind and therefore have complete faith in the ponies I breed. I will not sell for peanuts and take pleasure in matching ponies to homes - money would not buy a pony if I didn't think the home was suitable and similarly I have sold ponies cheaper to someone who is dedicated and deserves success! I have 12 broodmares but have only had 3 foals this year but I make no apology for breeding these 3 and am highly delighted with them - will I sell them as foals? not sure, I have had enquiries, especially for 1 colt for stud use. who is only a week old but I will wait until he is a few months old to decide whether I think he is stallion potential or not or whether to sell or not. I have had 2 4yr olds broken this year, at considerable expense, but both had buyers waiting if they were suitable(which they were) and sold straight away. I am a breeder and I know I am not at the core of any welfare issues, far from it! I agree that likeing foals or wanting to see the colour is no basis for breeding a foal but if all the responsible breeders ceased the only ponies available would be from the irresponsible ones who churn them out by the dozen with no regard for quality, conformation or ability, let alone basic health requirements such as adequate nutrition, worming, footcare etc. I am also happy to post as myself without hiding behind a guest name!  |
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sarahp
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Post by sarahp on May 19, 2012 21:23:53 GMT
Hear hear.
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Milliesmum
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Post by Milliesmum on May 19, 2012 21:33:43 GMT
I haven't a problem with people breeding who have given careful consideration to what they are doing and are willing to give a foal an education so as to give it the best start and the best chance of a decent future. It's the ones that are up for sale at weaning, i.e. once they get past the cute stage, not because someone has expressed an interest but purely because the novelty has worn off, that make me sad. But your quite right about the 'pony farmers' and I think in these cases the WPCS need to step in given their role of promoting the welfare of the breed. Especially in certain cases where the ponies are not even being 'farmed' but left to breed unchecked and uncared for and the lucky ones who manage to actually survive just get shipped to market for yet another 'dispersal sale'. Sorry, I'll get off my soapbox now.  |
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kayjayem
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Post by kayjayem on May 19, 2012 21:42:28 GMT
Stay on your soapbox MM you are absolutely right! I'm not sure what the answer is really. Maybe adding a premium to the registration fees on more than, say 10? But then would the "farmers" just register the fillies and the colts would be on the same one way trip? It really is heartbreaking for the flotsam which shouldn't have been bred but they are still the same mentally and spiritually just not physically as the decent ponies! (did that sound tree-huggerish?) It's a very sad situation  |
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Post by lisadundee on May 19, 2012 21:43:46 GMT
I haven't a problem with people breeding who have given careful consideration to what they are doing and are willing to give a foal an education so as to give it the best start and the best chance of a decent future. It's the ones that are up for sale at weaning, i.e. once they get past the cute stage, not because someone has expressed an interest but purely because the novelty has worn off, that make me sad. But your quite right about the 'pony farmers' and I think in these cases the WPCS need to step in given their role of promoting the welfare of the breed. Especially in certain cases where the ponies are not even being 'farmed' but left to breed unchecked and uncared for and the lucky ones who manage to actually survive just get shipped to market for yet another 'dispersal sale'. Sorry, I'll get off my soapbox now. mine are for sale at weaning because that's the time they can leave their mums, not because they are no longer cute, but like I said in my previous post my pregnancy was not something that could have been foreseen and I can't go in to winter with them as I won't be able to care for them properly, however as far as giving them a good education and a good start, they will be well handled when they leave me and have each been tied up and stroked to death today at only a few week old, it annoys me when breeders leave their stock until they are too big and dangerous to tustle with and by that point at 2 and 3 year old and even yearlings they are petrified of humans! I like my babies to be confident and happy but easy to manage! Even if their mummy's are not lol :-D |
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Post by melyniog on May 19, 2012 21:54:48 GMT
I have recently bought my daughter a fantastic, kind quiet section D gelding. She has been given a photograph of him when he was a foal. He didn't have enough cholostrum and had to have a blood plasma transfusion. As a colt he had to be gelded.
I would like to say a HUGE thank you to his breeder who I am sure didn't make a penny from him. Foals do grow up to make riding ponies. Indeed without foals there would be no riding ponies.
On the other hand I agree there are SOME breeders who breed too many, without thought
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Post by lisadundee on May 19, 2012 22:02:19 GMT
I have recently bought my daughter a fantastic, kind quiet section D gelding. She has been given a photograph of him when he was a foal. He didn't have enough cholostrum and had to have a blood plasma transfusion. As a colt he had to be gelded. I would like to say a HUGE thank you to his breeder who I am sure didn't make a penny from him. Foals do grow up to make riding ponies. Indeed without foals there would be no riding ponies. On the other hand I agree there are SOME breeders who breed too many, without thought We had the exact same thing with one of our foals last year, we had previously owned the mare and sold her cheap as a brood mare with the provision we could have first refusal of her should she be sold on as she was dangerous to try and ride and we didn't want her falling in to the wrong hands and hurting someone, we saw her advertised on horsemart and bought her back in foal, sadly she ran her milk too early and there was no chlostrum left for the foal, he was such a big foal too! Stood touching 15hh at weaning but we got him a fantastic home with a lady in Surrey! She travelled all the way down to Halifax and stayed overnight just so she could transport him home herself safely! He was a gawky foal and I dot think hel come in to his own until he's 5 but I think hel be stunning when he does. |
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Post by penbayr on May 19, 2012 22:04:10 GMT
Every comment here from people who are still breeding contains a logical reason as to why they are breeding. Which is the whole problem.
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kayjayem
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Post by kayjayem on May 19, 2012 22:07:36 GMT
Every comment here from people who are still breeding contains a logical reason as to why they are breeding. Which is the whole problem. What is the problem with my logic? |
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Post by lisadundee on May 19, 2012 22:11:06 GMT
Every comment here from people who are still breeding contains a logical reason as to why they are breeding. Which is the whole problem. What is the problem with my logic? and mine?? |
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Post by Erinx on May 19, 2012 22:48:03 GMT
I don't see how any of you are adding to the problem. Your breeding quality ponies which you are happy to keep until a home is found. What's the problem with that?
Ponies farmers are the problem that breed anything with everything and sell it on for peanuts just to get rid.
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Post by penbayr on May 19, 2012 23:53:15 GMT
Your logic is that the few foals you breed are not the problem, the pony farmers are. This is the cry of all the small breeders, why can't you see that every foal bred adds to the total number. There are huge numbers of well bred ponies going for meat, a good pedigree does not guarantee a good home. There is and always will be a good market for children's ponies, but why would I buy one from you when I can pick up a well bred one for 10 quid?
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Post by Erinx on May 20, 2012 6:59:17 GMT
Word of mouth is the best advertisement in any business, so if I knew somebody that had bought a pony off somebody I'd b more tempted to go with who they bought it from eager than £10 down the sales.
And to be honest I find your remark abit rude, lisasundee has said hers are only forsale at weaning because she found out she is pregnant, what's wrong with that? She's clearly selling the foals on to be given a good start rather than be put in a field as she won't have enough time to dedicate to them.
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Post by penbayr on May 20, 2012 9:23:02 GMT
I really don't care if you find my remarks offensive, I find it very offensive that people continue to breed when there are ponies being put in cans of dog food. What a waste, and how sad for these poor little mites who never stood a chance.
lisadundee is the perfect example of how people's circumstances change, and they find themselves unable to keep their animals. I hope she finds good homes for all of hers, she would probably stand a better chance of doing so if the market wasn't so saturated with unwanted ponies
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Post by lisadundee on May 20, 2012 10:38:27 GMT
I really don't care if you find my remarks offensive, I find it very offensive that people continue to breed when there are ponies being put in cans of dog food. What a waste, and how sad for these poor little mites who never stood a chance. lisadundee is the perfect example of how people's circumstances change, and they find themselves unable to keep their animals. I hope she finds good homes for all of hers, she would probably stand a better chance of doing so if the market wasn't so saturated with unwanted ponies I am not a perfect example as I was told I couldn't have anymore children by my doctor and consultant so you tend to rely on their advice, I am also not selling my foals because they will starve if I don't because affording them is not a problem, however like I said I don't like leaving my babies in a field un handled to turn wild and they will not get the care to my standards whilst I have a new born baby, I am in two minds whether to keep one as my husband said he will handle her for me but can't manage 3 when he works 5am til 7pm 5 days a week and half days Saturday's. I agree there is an overbreeding problem but if everyone was scared of a change of circumstance then no one would own horses! I know people who livery on our yard who have had their horse 10 years and gone redundant and had to sell it! So does that mean that person should never have owned their horse incase their situation changed! It's the same for me, I bred my fillys to keep to show and carry my prefix, if fate had turned the other way I could have not had another child and they would have stayed but either way they will be found good homes as said before, I have a very good reputation and it counts for a lot! |
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Post by catkin on May 20, 2012 16:55:08 GMT
As a non breeder but many time buyer of youngstock to break and ride, the points I would like to make are those of quality and reliability.
When I buy a horse or pony, I not only want it to have great conformation, type, movement etc, but equally importantly a temperament I can rely on. Small breeders who provide this should be encouraged. In fact without them, we would have a big problem in finding our riding animals.
Breeding has always been a labour of love, and in recent times I have been concerned that the lack of financial viablity of any sort will kill off too many small quality breeders. I have been guillty of wanting a cheap deal in the past, but if you actually consider how much it costs to raise an animal to a breakable 3 year old, its amazing many people bother.
Yes, there is a massive problem with over and poorly managed breeding, but don't lets lose site of the responsible breeders who need support not bashing
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Post by sometime on May 20, 2012 19:16:22 GMT
It cost between 3 and 5 thousand pounds to bring a foal from conception to Riding well and confidently I dont think anyone who breeds quality does it for the money to be honest that is of course if it is done properly with all the vaccinations, feeding, foot treatment, handling and breaking costs. That is on the cheap side too we worked it out at 800 per year plus breaking costs without livery and accidents
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kayjayem
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Post by kayjayem on May 20, 2012 19:35:27 GMT
Your logic is that the few foals you breed are not the problem, the pony farmers are. This is the cry of all the small breeders, why can't you see that every foal bred adds to the total number. There are huge numbers of well bred ponies going for meat, a good pedigree does not guarantee a good home. There is and always will be a good market for children's ponies, but why would I buy one from you when I can pick up a well bred one for 10 quid? Absolutely true a good pedigree does not guarantee a good home, i don't think anyone said it does. It is carefully rearing and being selective where you sell that does that. And no you wouldn't buy from me as to be honest if you do not appreciate the difference between a well nourished, wormed, confident and well handled youngster and a farmed foal dragged in from the field and taken from it's mother to go through a sale for 10 quid I would not sell to you for any price. Luckily there are many people out there who are looking for quality, healthy ponies who have had a good start in life not just the cheapest option. Interesting though that you would prefer to put money in the pocket one of these famers therefore perpetuating the problem! Maybe people like you are a large part of the problem offering a chance for them to offload  |
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Post by brindlerainbow on May 20, 2012 19:41:57 GMT
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Post by penbayr on May 20, 2012 22:50:12 GMT
I have actually never bought any animal from a sale, but there are hundreds who do, and not every pony who is entered at the sales comes from a big stud or a pony farmer. Being well handled does not mean they will bring a good price, look at the very nice stallion, broken to saddle and harness, who recently sold for 200 pounds.
It's fairly obvious you are going to defend your right to add to the overbreeding problem to the death. You go for it, if you can live with the possibility of your cute little foal ending up neglected or dead then that's great. I will stick to the argument that every foal born adds to the problem, whether it comes from a big stud or a small one. You people obviously don't think there is an overbreeding problem within the welsh breed, or if you do, why are you still breeding them?
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Post by sometime on May 21, 2012 0:26:20 GMT
I certainly agree there is a problem I stopped breeding about 17 years ago welsh ponies I have had only had one foal since a rare breed highland luckily a filly who is now 3 years old and still with me I may have struggled with a colt as I dont do boys very well but he would have been gelded on his mum and he too would have been retained. The costs of my filly would frighten anyone who didnt have a load of good fortune I think we are well past £5000 to get her this far so she will never be worth what she has cost to produce but she is worth her wight in gold to me. She will likely be my last foal either bred here or bought in as I am getting too old for the hassle
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? If you don't want it, don't breed it for goodness sake - what makes you think that if you don't want it someone else will? Its so sad and it makes me really angry, especially as most of the 'for sale at weaning' ones are colts, do people not realise there's a 50% chance they won't get a filly?
