The Welsh over breeding problem.

[how caring]

May 23, 2012 18:59:41 GMT eskvalleystud said:

I have to say I have read studs who state they breed responsibly and run on if not sold to then have them advertise their stock for sale to make way for next years foals or because there are too many half sisters, brothers, aunties, uncles etc otherwise wouldn't be advertised for sale - again another foal put on the market to add to out of control numbers, since ponies can breed late on in their teens/early twenties whats the urgency to breed foals year in year out to preserve the old bloodlines - fair enough if you are going to keep each and every foal or have room too, but alot actually don't/don't have a job for them etc if they are kept on, I will not breed again as I have kept the majority of my offspring and suffering the consequences of being over stocked - but admit its my own fault!

Well said. Not many would admit to that either. Yes the "make way for this years foals" thing irritates me. Alot of people who say they will run them on, seldom do.

[sarahp]

I run them on until sold, and while any that I am happy to sell, most commonly geldings born when trying to breed a filly to keep, are on my website as for sale they are very seldom advertised anywhere else. And NEVER to make room for this year's foals.

[honeypot]

I have always bought other people youngstock until last year when I bred my first foal. Hours were spent choosing a stallion, having her swabbed and travelling her to stud. This was not done on a whim and the foal duelly arrived practically perfect in every way. I could have bought a foal for perhaps a little more than it cost to breed but I would have to trail round the country to find it.
Although we do not need the amount of ponies being bred at the moment we will need replacements and the sweeping statement that all breeders are feckless is missing the piont. We need to breed good quality animals that will have a value in a depressed market. Saying that small breeder who pay stud fees, carefully choose stallions and then keeps what thay breed until its ready to do a job is creating the problem is bonkers as all they are doing is putting themselves out of pocket so someone gets to ride a nice horse.
Unfortuately unless its a very good pony Welsh A youngstock are virtually worthless, my friend bought one for £150 that had won at the RW, but in 5 years time it should make a lovely childs pony that anyone would wish to buy.
If you look on the wanted ads everyone wants an experienced quite pony/horse aged 6-10yrs for a resonable price, quite small ponies are selling at the moment if they are not over priced and alot of these will have been in there breeders field for most of their life.
I suppose the biggest problem is everyone wants a bargin, a small pony educated well will cost just as much to produce in time and money as a 16.2 hunter but will be harder to find but you are lucky if anyone wants to pay more than £1500 for it as its 'just' a pony.

[poneydestiny]

With the welsh mountains at the moment, you have two separate markets - one pet food production the other riding/showing/performance. The problem arises in not having separated these two distinct products.
The Hill Societies have failed dismally in their objectives and those products are looked upon as pet food currently (that is what the market is telling you)and by sending to open markets drag down the prices of everyone else's carefully raised and bred stock.
The WPCS as the breed society must address the two tier markets which are co-mingled at present, with stock raised ostensibly for slaughter being mixed in with stock raised for performance. The way to do that is to make performance stock raising more expensive, through proper registration/stallion/breeding fees and maintain separate sales outlets for "unpapered" pet food stock which will join the rest of the overpopulation of vanner cobs, mixed breeds from the Dartmoors etc etc. in their quest to be paid on a per pound basis. One should stop underwriting the hill farmers meat breeding efforts as well. The so- called important bloodlines are being spread all over the slaughterhouse floor. This is not a good result for the WPCS which are the overseeing body on this issue and should be at the forefront of a solution for the benefit of all

[catkin]

Well said poneydestiny. I was about to say myself that yes, there is an overproduction problem, but NOT of the sort of stock I think the market needs/wants. Rather, its the mass produced variety that are causing the problem.

Of course, when you breed in excess once in a while you end up with a superstar, but the success rate must be far lower than those breeding selectively.

Honeypot, I believe some valid points here too. I think there is still the same market as there ever was for 'made' children's ponies. And, you are quite correct, to make them takes time and expense.

[sarahp]

I have trawled all through this thread and found some points I would like to answer, mostly from "how caring". But first, I don't think referring to any breeders as "scum" helps to advance your cause, at least I'm not high profile enough to qualify for that one. And I'm not going to mention any names on here in public.

There are good and bad in both large and small studs - and many of the latter are anything but inexperienced breeders but have been going in some cases through more than one generation. Often smaller breeders can pay more attention to each individual mating, and I'd hazard a guess that many have a higher ratio of "winners to runners" as the racing world has it than some of the larger studs. I could give a list of top class studs both large and small in all sections that have produced top winning offspring. It seems an odd view to me to assume that smaller studs have lower aspirations than large ones, believe me, we try just as hard to breed quality stock and often manage it - and while it is not guaranteed, using good stock is more likely to produce good offspring than using mediocre parents.

And as for prefixes, quality and bloodlines - I'm not quite sure what your definition of quality stock is, but quality doesn't always match up with old, well known prefixes, it can be found with prefixes of which hardly anyone has ever heard, and not everything with a well known prefix will have the quality to match the prefix. You need to look at the individual pony and it's immediate ancestors. Of course most WMPs go back to the well known prefixes if you go back far enough, but that doesn't always mean it is "well bred" - you need to look at the more immediate ancestors to weigh up if it is well or badly bred, if you have gone back say 6 generations to find a good one it's not likely that the descendent will be of top quality.

Using geldings for conservation grazing is carried out in some places - we have some Exmoor geldings round here doing a good job. I'm all for it. And the "if it's not in foal it'll get too fat" argument is no reason at all to put mares in foal willy nilly, use some other management techniques to keep them healthy.

[poneydestiny]

Tending to agree with all that is recently said by the posters. How about this for a thought? Any seller of foals, who is willing to accept less than 200£ (just above the meat price) is sending a clear message that their stock is worthless, good for petfood, and participates in letting down all the other breeders by driving the market prices down in their "dumping" practices. These sellers should become the pariahs of the breeding world as they are working exactly against the serious, engaged breeders who present quality stock and expect to be paid for it, otherwise they DO NOT BREED. Maybe a whiplash effect would be a good thing regarding these irresponsible breeders and their sales practices as it drives down the entire market.

[how caring]

SarahP, im guessing by your not mentioning any names comment you already know the sorts of people i will happily stand under the "scum" umbrella. We all know those sorts, therefore do understand i do not for one minute think that of all breeders.

The sorts of small studs i refer to, of which there are many around, are those who ended up with a stallion as they fancied it, offering it about for a fee, got themselves a few nice enough but cheap mares from whoever had to give them up to to financial reasons, have not much idea and call themselves a stud, there are plenty around. You only have to look through certain welsh pages on Facebook, to see for yourself.

I do respect the small studs, who are knowledgable and very careful. But please do think about the hugely positive impact, not breeding for as little as a couple of years would have.

Now, i like poneydestinys idea. A minimum value. I think there should be one.

Overbreeding is an issue, when there are too many ponies around just like now. The breed would not die out, if left alone for a while, just a couple of years to level things up?

Yes, good first ponies are still sort after but, there are plenty around already! Plenty of them, all over the country. I have youngstock i would like to sell, very well bred, superb temperaments and will make good show animals as well as childrens all round ponies in the future. No i did not breed them. However, i am reluctant to sell for peanuts, regardless of the home purely because unless every one gets brave enough to put prices back up then this sorry state will continue.

Ponies are bought for less than a rabbit at the moment and people are now expecting perfect childrens mounts for very little money. £1500 someone here mentioned? Dream on, people are wanting to pay £400 to £700 mark only for mothers dream types (not talking showing here) and they are getting them.

So what about if everyone here, just on Horse Gossip alone, raised their asking price, put the value back up of good childrens ponies? That is alot of people alone. People won't then be expecting them for peanuts? Just a thought. But one i would like to see happen. £500 for a genuine first pony? We paid 3 times that 30 years ago!

[poneydestiny]

On the REBS facebook page (Responsible Equine Breeding) last year they published several photos of little colt mountains that were sold by well known studs for 30£ and 50£ each and ended up in the hands of a nefarious dealer (one little colt has disappeared altogether) There was a huge hue and cry, oh not fair! do not put the names of the studs in the public eye! had to sell! and all the rest. I personally think it was a good way to bring some sort of attention to the current problem where everyone can come up with an excuse as to why they sell at 30£ and an addition one hundred excuses as to why they breed in the first place, so these people should be prepared to have their names put front and center on their actions - THAT is responsibility. And again, everyone has to band together with the WPCS leading the way to make it expensive to be a breeder of quality stock and let the pet food breeders fall by the wayside - if they have to rejoice that a sales entry fee is decreased by 5£ or so they shouldn't be breeding to start with, as we know, it costs at least 500£ to get the foal on the ground if we are being honest.

[sarahp]

How caring - no, I wasn't thinking of names of anyone coming under your "scum" comment, I'd never describe anyone like that. Maybe I phrased it wrong, it was a purely general comment, but I was really explaining that I was not prepared to put up a list of top class studs both large and small as I said I easily could. Not everyone wants their name bandied about in public for all to read, even in a good way.