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Post by Yes But on Jun 23, 2017 21:38:50 GMT
And think about this Her horse was the only one in her catagory not placed, not even pulled forward. Left standing alone in a mixed class of 24 He has already qualified RI this year and RI & HOYS previously. The result of this "error"(cock-up) was everyone left thinking her horse was dire, or worse something seriously wrong with it. This will follow him now, which is the very reason a Good showman will withdraw a good pony if it is "not right" rather than have it be seen standing at the bottom of the line. Mud sticks. Call it an innocent mistake if you want, but innocent mistakes have consequences.
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Post by gillwales on Jun 24, 2017 15:41:57 GMT
My cousin received notification that she actually came 4th at SOE. They missed off 10 marks! She has missed her "moment" but it's fine, because the judge and stewards were probably tired.. She will have her moment in her hallway at home when the rosette and prize money come through the post... Sorry but competitors have the right to be upset and not be shouted down by the defensive few Nobody is shouting you down, you must appreciate though that far more credence would be given to your complaints if you did not do it under a guest name. Furthermore constructive critisium is far more valueable than just moaning without a suggestion of how to put things right and you must understand how damaging all of the social media judge/ steward bashing is to showing. Nobody likes mistakes to happen, especially those involved on the inside of the ring, do you seriously think that these people travel miles, give up their time, stand around for hours at a time regardless of the weather to go out to spoil someone's day such as your cousin?
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Post by Yes But on Jun 25, 2017 11:02:25 GMT
Gill, with respect, people post under guest names due to fear of reprisal from the society themselves due to their draconian responses to their social medial rules.. My answer to you regarding the judge travelling miles etc... Sorry but a judge not noticing her 4th highest score (1st in it's section and qualified) was standing alone and unplaced...is in my opinion not just a genuine mistake..it is a disgaceful lack of attention! As a judge a basic practice is to scan the line up and the unplaced animals before presentation of rossettes to check nothing is out of place. This is a basic!...
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Post by chloesmum on Jun 25, 2017 12:58:39 GMT
I think if there are 2 judges perhaps the judge feels the other judge must have really marked it down. I have sometimes seen and judges check the marks and ask the other judge how did it go (if they have obviously given a high conformation mark) and see pony unplaced. In fact at HOYS last year, not a wrong add up but the stewards missed our pony's number and another when calling the 11 finalists forward. We were dissapointed as we thought he had gone really well but then thought he must have had a poor conformation mark. They were literally just being dismissed when I saw the conformation judge look at our pony leaving and ask to see the marks sheet. They then re-announced the 11 numbers and to our relief he was called forward - and was the class winner! Luckily the judges were on the ball as I think he had highest ride mark and second highest conformation. It would have been interesting to see what would have happened had we left the ring and they called the places and when it got to the winner we were not there!!
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Post by gillwales on Jun 25, 2017 17:23:04 GMT
OK Yes But, you have had enough to say about how dreadful it is so why don't you come up with a solution?
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Post by WHY? on Jun 25, 2017 17:45:45 GMT
OK Yes But, you have had enough to say about how dreadful it is so why don't you come up with a solution? The solution is that all 4 officials check the sheets not just rely on them being correct! What is the likelihood of 4 people making the exact same mistake? I would hazard a guess at virtually nil
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Post by gillwales on Jun 25, 2017 20:45:35 GMT
OK Yes But, you have had enough to say about how dreadful it is so why don't you come up with a solution? The solution is that all 4 officials check the sheets not just rely on them being correct! What is the likelihood of 4 people making the exact same mistake? I would hazard a guess at virtually nil And are you prepared for longer classes? Therefore less classes as less would be able to be fitted into a timetable? Are you prepared to pay extra fees so that every affiliated show provides 4 officials for every class? If so then that is fine.
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Post by WHY? on Jun 25, 2017 22:31:18 GMT
The solution is that all 4 officials check the sheets not just rely on them being correct! What is the likelihood of 4 people making the exact same mistake? I would hazard a guess at virtually nil And are you prepared for longer classes? Therefore less classes as less would be able to be fitted into a timetable? Are you prepared to pay extra fees so that every affiliated show provides 4 officials for every class? If so then that is fine. If it means more accuracy yes, longer classes aren't a problem and rather less classes judged properly. Why should there be extra fees? there are already 4 officials in every class so how do you get tht there would be extra costs, your argument doesn't hold up and you have answered the question that presently the marks arent being checked by all the officials which is the source of the problem!
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Post by WHY? on Jun 25, 2017 22:59:16 GMT
And are you prepared for longer classes? Therefore less classes as less would be able to be fitted into a timetable? Are you prepared to pay extra fees so that every affiliated show provides 4 officials for every class? If so then that is fine. If it means more accuracy yes, longer classes aren't a problem and rather less classes judged properly. Why should there be extra fees? Did you not realise that there are already 4 officials in every class so how do you get that there would be extra costs, your argument doesn't hold up and you have answered the question that presently the marks arent being checked by all the officials which is the source of the problem!
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Post by WHY? on Jun 25, 2017 23:01:44 GMT
If it means more accuracy yes, longer classes aren't a problem and rather less classes judged properly. Why should there be extra fees? Do you not realise that there are already 4 officials in every class so how do you get that there would be extra costs, your argument doesn't hold up and you have answered the question that presently the marks arent being checked by all the officials which is the source of the problem!
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Post by WHY? on Jun 25, 2017 23:09:28 GMT
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Post by honeypot on Jun 25, 2017 23:53:04 GMT
My solution is the mark sheets are added in the ring the top six are told to come back for the championship, there is usually one. In the mean time the mark sheets go to the secretaries and are checked again by someone who's only job is to do this, with a calculator or laptop. Some could probably do software or a spreadsheet that would work it all out. This is basically what happens in dressage. The senior judge then signs the marks as correct and does the placings. At the moment no one takes responsibility. I can not believe in this day and age that this can not be sorted.
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Post by Yes But on Jun 26, 2017 10:02:30 GMT
To clarify there was one judge who had marked all sections The solution Gill is for people on duty in the ring to take their time and check check check..use a calculator if necessary... Sorry but the solition is simple..... As a steward you repeat the mark back before scribing If still not sure show the judge what you have written to double check When adding up check it again Get someone else to check When/if using 100 sheets count how many marked in class against how many on 100 sheet, so you don't miss one off. Check you have nothing higher than the score you think is 1st/2nd etc and read them back to someone to ensure not transposed etc Ask the judge to check the marks Ask the judge if they are happy with line up, is anything out of place Ask them to check back line, should something be in front line If all happy go ahead a present, also checking cards, eligability etc Judge signs sheet as correct
NOT ROCKET SCIENCE
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Post by lucynlizzysmum on Jun 26, 2017 10:10:57 GMT
With all respect Yes But - whenever I have stewarded the judges have always checked and always signed them as correct. As we have all said so many times human error happens - no it is not rocket science - but I think Gill's solution (not solition) is a far better one - a fresh set of eyes looking at the marks. Then again, by the end of the day if you have 6/10/12 rings going - that element can creep in again.
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Post by Forgotten Log In on Jun 26, 2017 10:47:54 GMT
Having stewarded many HOYS and RIHS which I used to enjoy, I have explained to my non horsey husband the problems that we encounter. He has found a fantastic Clip Board with in built solar calculator on eBay Item Number 201965022565, search it on Ebay and see what you all think. They range from approximately £5 - £20.00. These should be made compulsory and supplied by the show. We have also been on the receiving end whilst competing in HOYS qualifiers of wrongly added marks and know how upsetting it is.
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Post by Yes But on Jun 26, 2017 11:41:33 GMT
Really lucynlizzysmum is that the best you've got..picking up on a spelling error on a post...well done you! When my spelling error causes the upset this marking error has caused my cousin, and the wrongly placed competitor, then come back to me with your pedantantic comments. An offical complaint has been made to the society involved. Therefore I will say no more.
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Post by serendipity on Jun 26, 2017 12:28:15 GMT
Having stewarded many HOYS and RIHS which I used to enjoy, I have explained to my non horsey husband the problems that we encounter. He has found a fantastic Clip Board with in built solar calculator on eBay Item Number 201965022565, search it on Ebay and see what you all think. They range from approximately £5 - £20.00. These should be made compulsory and supplied by the show. We have also been on the receiving end whilst competing in HOYS qualifiers of wrongly added marks and know how upsetting it is. I have stewarded many times and competed many more times - most often in working hunter classes where most of the errors seem to occur. Calculators are definitely not the answer - for a start it is easy to make mistake inputting - Rubbish in rubbish out as they say. Mistakes are not normally in the adding - they are in the transposing of marks and interpretation of the rules (e.g. those on equal marks). Also the reason the qualifiers medal stopped being presented in the ring for HOYS qualifiers was that no-one had definitely qualified till everything had been checked in the office and a letter of congratulations sent out . The presentation in the ring is great and exciting and potentially disappointing but should not be considered to be the final word. Whatever people say on here about 4 people should be able to get it right, I defy anyone to never make a mistake. I stewarded 14 working hunter classes yesterday - dong the jump marks and the final initial adding. I am big headed enough to think I don't make mistakes but I did make one yesterday - it was not a HOYS qualifier and did not affect the class qualification as it was a lower position . No -one in the ring picked it up but the show office did and that's how it should be.
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Post by lucynlizzysmum on Jun 26, 2017 13:43:44 GMT
Really lucynlizzysmum is that the best you've got..picking up on a spelling error on a post...well done you! When my spelling error causes the upset this marking error has caused my cousin, and the wrongly placed competitor, then come back to me with your pedantantic comments. An offical complaint has been made to the society involved. Therefore I will say no more. Yes - I picked up your spelling error as I was a fresh set of eyes - I feel sorry for your cousin but you obviously are convinced that things should be correct all of the time. I used to proof read dairy catalogues for a living - as there are many figures with ear numbers, pedigree numbers, lot numbers, lactations - they used to be double if not treble checked quite often - and no we did not always get it right .... 99% of the time we would, but there were times when an error would slip past both us and the typesetter. It would only be when the catalogue had gone out and a fresh set of eyes had looked at it that it would be noted. What I am saying is you cannot totally get rid of human error, sadly your cousin has had a raw deal. However, I very much doubt that it was a deliberate error. As Gillwales suggests fetching top 6 back in after the marks have been checked could well be a very sensible way forward. You are obviously and understandably upset by your cousin's treatment however to constantly snipe that it shouldn't happen (agreed but it does) and shout down anyone making a sensible solution (Gillwales) by saying "it's not rocket science" - well frankly should you make an error people are going to pull you up on it. I think these major qualifiers and the major championships in order to alleviate the likelihood of this happening should perhaps look at adopting a strategy where things are checked - however, cost and time need to be factored in.
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Post by lucynlizzysmum on Jun 26, 2017 13:48:57 GMT
The solution is that all 4 officials check the sheets not just rely on them being correct! What is the likelihood of 4 people making the exact same mistake? I would hazard a guess at virtually nil And are you prepared for longer classes? Therefore less classes as less would be able to be fitted into a timetable? Are you prepared to pay extra fees so that every affiliated show provides 4 officials for every class? If so then that is fine. To be fair - whenever I steward with two judges and two stewards we generally all check the marks - so that happens now already
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Post by janetbushell on Jun 26, 2017 15:01:31 GMT
Personally I don't think the "top six" suggestion would solve the problem of an addition error out by 10 marks - particularly in WHP where there are often not that number of marks separating the top 10 animals.
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Post by gillwales on Jun 26, 2017 16:20:51 GMT
All I can think Yes But is that you start holding classes on "how to Judge and Steward" Give up your time, spend your money. People like you stop others from wanting or being prepared to help run shows, soon there will not be anyone prepared to give up their time, then what are you going to spend all that money on? People like you are killing showing.
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Post by honeypot on Jun 26, 2017 19:29:59 GMT
As I nurse I am responsible for drug calculations, it used to be the norm for two nurses to check but over the years its changed. One nurse does the calculation, that means you check more thoroughly, as its you that is responsible, its your signature and your registration at stake if you are found to be negligent. I have been there when marks are added up, and often there its not enough space, time and a blooming calculator. The idea of calling back the top six, it could be the top ten or the whole class, is that the placings are not fixed until they are checked in the office, which is when most of the errors are spotted. So there is less chance of any one being upset but have the rosette or qualification taken off them. Everyone makes mistakes, we are all fallible, but that doesn't stop us wanting to prevent them and being open about how and why they are made because that can help change things for the better. I do not think being a volunteer should make you feel there less need to be 100% professional. Which I hasten to add most people are.
I have organised things over the years and one of the most valuable things you can get is positive and negative feedback. Negative feedback, we all hate it, haven't we tried our best? If you are getting the same feedback, about the same things, there is something to think about. I would be looking a simple changes, finding out recording how many errors there are, there may not be that many and we just hear about them. Most important I would be telling people what was going to be done if anything.
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Post by honeypot on Jun 26, 2017 19:35:08 GMT
All I can think Yes But is that you start holding classes on "how to Judge and Steward" Give up your time, spend your money. People like you stop others from wanting or being prepared to help run shows, soon there will not be anyone prepared to give up their time, then what are you going to spend all that money on? People like you are killing showing. I have actually attended a training on how to steward, I think Roger Stack was a speaker. The H&S element was as interesting as the rest of it. I wanted to do it so I spent my time trying to learn to do it well. It doesn't matter if someone complains or not, I should know how to do it well.
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Post by janetbushell on Jun 27, 2017 7:40:51 GMT
As I nurse I am responsible for drug calculations, it used to be the norm for two nurses to check but over the years its changed. One nurse does the calculation, that means you check more thoroughly, as its you that is responsible, its your signature and your registration at stake if you are found to be negligent. I have been there when marks are added up, and often there its not enough space, time and a blooming calculator. The idea of calling back the top six, it could be the top ten or the whole class, is that the placings are not fixed until they are checked in the office, which is when most of the errors are spotted. So there is less chance of any one being upset but have the rosette or qualification taken off them. Everyone makes mistakes, we are all fallible, but that doesn't stop us wanting to prevent them and being open about how and why they are made because that can help change things for the better. I do not think being a volunteer should make you feel there less need to be 100% professional. Which I hasten to add most people are. I have organised things over the years and one of the most valuable things you can get is positive and negative feedback. Negative feedback, we all hate it, haven't we tried our best? If you are getting the same feedback, about the same things, there is something to think about. I would be looking a simple changes, finding out recording how many errors there are, there may not be that many and we just hear about them. Most important I would be telling people what was going to be done if anything. I have never stewarded with anyone (new to the task or experienced!) who didn't want to be 100% professional, but we are all human & therefore errors can be made. Regarding your point over drug administration, I am slightly disappointed that you imply that your main concern is loss of your own nursing registration, rather than the possible consequences to the patient, but I think I understand that your example is to illustrate the importance of checking. Again, however thorough, checking is still done by humans & sadly mistakes are still made & the medical profession is no exception, even when procedures are in place. I am sure there could be improvements in stewards training, particularly at some shows where some of the team only steward those classes at that show once a year, however these stewards can also bring a very useful fresh perspective on procedures & checks etc Judges are assessed on their ability to mark classes correctly by the BSPS when they apply for the panel and are responsible for signing the mark sheets as being correct, however these assessments will not be on sheets that might run to 4/5 pages in a HOYS WHP qualifier & are also on their own society mark sheets, not HOYS ones - which are different for WHP classes, so perhaps dummy classes should be provided as part of the assessment - & under time constraints & clipboard only situations? However - all who passed or failed this scenario would still possibly make a mistake in the future or always be 100% correct, as it goes back to my original point - humans do make mistakes. So do calculators & computers, as their results are only as good as the human who inputted the data to them.
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serendipity but can't log in
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Post by serendipity but can't log in on Jun 27, 2017 12:12:37 GMT
The main point is - You have not quailed for HOYS or RI until you get your confirmation letter. The results in the ring are only provisional. Yes it can be bitterly disappointing if you were pulled first and then find that you actually were not first. WE were always aware that no matter how exciting it is to be pulled first - that is NOT FINAL.
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Post by Checking marks on Jun 28, 2017 9:52:23 GMT
I help at a few shows in the office and checking marks .Checking marks especially whp classes is time consuming and often there is not much help. I have always maintained that the marks should be available for viewing under supervision as soon as the class is finished. Mistakes will be picked up immeadiatley and can be corrected with the judges before any championship takes place. I get fed up hearing from judges that we must wait until after the championship before displaying the marks as they frequently have no bearing on the final result. To those people who are suggesting electronic and hand held devices over pen and paper have they thought how the work in extremes of temperature and bad weather What happens if there is an equipment failure and all marks are lost, how can they be printed off at small shows. Lastly a big thank you to people like Serendipity who give up thei time to stand in rings for long times and in all weathers with little help so that people can compete.
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Post by lucynlizzysmum on Jun 28, 2017 12:04:53 GMT
I help at a few shows in the office and checking marks .Checking marks especially whp classes is time consuming and often there is not much help. I have always maintained that the marks should be available for viewing under supervision as soon as the class is finished. Mistakes will be picked up immeadiatley and can be corrected with the judges before any championship takes place. I get fed up hearing from judges that we must wait until after the championship before displaying the marks as they frequently have no bearing on the final result. To those people who are suggesting electronic and hand held devices over pen and paper have they thought how the work in extremes of temperature and bad weather What happens if there is an equipment failure and all marks are lost, how can they be printed off at small shows. Lastly a big thank you to people like Serendipity who give up thei time to stand in rings for long times and in all weathers with little help so that people can compete. (Janet will correct me if I am wrong....) I think now marks do not have to be held till after championship? I can't remember where I was told that but it has certainly been whilst stewarding this year.
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Post by janetbushell on Jun 28, 2017 13:03:56 GMT
Correct lucynlizzysmum - while I have been on the BSPS panel this "rule" has never actually been incorporated in the rule book, but was just accepted practise.
Edited to add: very often it is just not very practical to return the sheets to the secretary's office as usually no spare man (or woman) power, as the next class will already be in progress.
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Post by girly on Jun 28, 2017 14:06:34 GMT
We still have who judges who tell us not to release marks until after the championship.
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Post by bigmama on Jun 28, 2017 14:42:21 GMT
We have been to an affiliated BSPS show this summer where the marks were withheld until after the championship had taken place
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