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Post by WHY? on Jun 11, 2017 20:17:42 GMT
Yet again there was an error on HOYS marks in the NNP at Derbyshire Festival. This is just not acceptable, yes we all know humans aren't infallible but how difficult is it with 2 judges and 2 stewards to actually get it right? Don't reel out the "every one is volunteering spiel" that's just not good enough. People invest vast amounts of time, labour, sweat and tears into their showing, not to mention the ridiculous amounts of money. It shouldn't be outside the realms of possibility to actually do the maths and transfer one number to another piece of paper!
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Post by lucynlizzysmum on Jun 11, 2017 21:28:14 GMT
Human error happens, but I agree that it is disappointing for all concerned. But I will also say this, we invest blood, sweat and tears into our ponies and money into show coffers, but I also invest a lot of time and energy into helping at shows in order to give back to a sport we have received a lot of fun at. I volunteer because I want to and most of the stewards who are involved do it for the same reasons as me. We are not automatons, and sometimes things happen and mistakes are missed. I hope that during your time of stewarding you never make a mistake - when or if it happens, people are always mortified - it most certainly is not deliberate.
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Post by WHY? on Jun 11, 2017 21:56:18 GMT
I agree human error does happen obviously, but with 4 people in the ring it really should be picked up. During my time of stewarding I check and double check everything and assume my co-officials do too, surely if results are checked thoroughly 4 times errors should be found! I know it's not deliberate that is rather a glib comment!
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Post by lucynlizzysmum on Jun 11, 2017 22:15:54 GMT
Sometimes when you look at figures and you think that is what they should read - that is what you see, not what it actually is. I am pleased to read that you do steward, as I am sure you will read my post in the lounge thread. You probably have been the thin end of the wedge on a number of issues I have read over the past few months, but I maintain what I say. When I add up I then pass to judge to check, and will probably look at it again myself, but I get tired, and I make mistakes and perhaps my comment about it is not deliberate was glib - but no more so than yours about the volunteering spiel!
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Post by WHY? on Jun 11, 2017 22:31:32 GMT
My comment about everyone volunteering wasn't glib to be honest it is the usual excuse when these errors happen all to frequently as if the fact that stewards aren't paid exhonorates them from their responsibility. I'm not trying to get at anyone here but these mistakes should not happen, it's wrong and avoidable if people took their responsibilities seriously and to be fair if you're tired there should be at least 1 of the 4 who can pick up errors. Sorry to sound ungrateful to stewards(of which I am one) but it really isn't good enough and competitors deserve better.
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Post by lucynlizzysmum on Jun 11, 2017 22:42:24 GMT
My comment about everyone volunteering wasn't glib to be honest it is the usual excuse when these errors happen all to frequently as if the fact that stewards aren't paid exhonorates them from their responsibility. I'm not trying to get at anyone here but these mistakes should not happen, it's wrong and avoidable if people took their responsibilities seriously and to be fair if you're tired there should be at least 1 of the 4 who can pick up errors. Sorry to sound ungrateful to stewards(of which I am one) but it really isn't good enough and competitors deserve better. All the work I have done all my life centres around accuracy and detail, and over the years I have found that very often if there is a mistake despite many looking at it it will only every show up when something has gone to print - and you say "how the hell did that happen, I looked at it, you looked at it, the boss looked at - joe bloggs looked at it - how the hell was it not picked up!" There is a saying that goes with it and I cannot remember what it is - something like Murphy's law, though it is not that one. What I am trying to say is that mistakes happen regardless of being paid a million pounds or not a penny. Whilst it is not good enough, it was not deliberate - yes competitors perhaps deserve better - but in an ideal world a steward would only do a couple of hours, but you try finding enough volunteers to do that. Not everyone is great at everything, but like you they are willing to give their time. Actually they deserve better from you !
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Post by WHY? on Jun 11, 2017 22:56:11 GMT
As I have already said i am fully aware and never suggested that it was not deliberate! It isn't rocket science to be able to see that there are 2 less numbers on the results sheet than there were competitors. All I am saying is that these things should be checked and with 4 people should be picked up. If there was a basic system, as in this case the number of entries checked to number on results sheet this wouldn't happen. I won't comment any further as obviously you're not happy with my input even though there was no malice intended but I hope it gives food for thought and maybe just maybe more care will be taken.
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Post by lucynlizzysmum on Jun 11, 2017 23:14:20 GMT
As I have already said i am fully aware and never suggested that it was not deliberate! It isn't rocket science to be able to see that there are 2 less numbers on the results sheet than there were competitors. All I am saying is that these things should be checked and with 4 people should be picked up. If there was a basic system, as in this case the number of entries checked to number on results sheet this wouldn't happen. I won't comment any further as obviously you're not happy with my input even though there was no malice intended but I hope it gives food for thought and maybe just maybe more care will be taken. Perhaps had you posted with at least your member name, I would have a tad more sympathy - I have looked at the mark sheet's and see where you are coming from - the marks were added up correctly but as you say they were not all carried over - but I still maintain that mistakes can happen (unless of course you are me who would never make them as I am miss perfect ...... I don't think) - we shall agree to differ, and hope that mistakes do not happen on either of our watch!
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Post by calerux on Jun 12, 2017 0:49:30 GMT
As I have already said i am fully aware and never suggested that it was not deliberate! It isn't rocket science to be able to see that there are 2 less numbers on the results sheet than there were competitors. All I am saying is that these things should be checked and with 4 people should be picked some how I don'tthere was a basic system, as in this case the number of entries checked to number on results sheet this wouldn't happen. I won't comment any further as obviously you're not happy with my input even though there was no malice intended but I hope it gives food for thought and maybe just maybe morte care will be taken. Maybe more care will be taken? How very rude and insulting of you Ms Annoymous! I am so relieved to hear that you are so perfect and 'in all your years of stewarding' have never made a mistake! I can only hope that whenever we go out showing that you are the steward as I couldn't possibly have confidence in anyone else! Implying that Stewards don't take their responsibilities seriously and therefore errors are avoidable is quite patronising. I'm sure all of us who steward like to think we are as perfect as you, but I'm sure everyone of us has made a mistake at some time. Most will be corrected in the ring, the very occasional one slips through the net as has happened here and the mistake wasn't repeated in every class so that destroys your theory of not taking responsibility seriously. You claim this is happening all too often, I don't have to hand the number of marks sheets completed across the country throughout a season, there must be hundreds and I would therefore estimate that probably less than 1% are in your category of 'all too often'. I used to work in an organisation where if I made a mistake the impact could be catastrophic, but this is showing for heaven's sake! Just to put things in perspective, an error was made it was not deliberate or malicious and as the marks sheets are posted there is no attempt at a cover up or any falsification. You keyboard warriors are quick to find fault but try swapping with a ring steward in the pouring down rain trying to do the marks as quickly and as accurately as possible on soggy sheets to avoid delay to competitors and judges who are also stood in the rain! No you're right it's not rocket science but a genuine mistake was made and it is obvious the checking system failed this time I.e judges & stewards BUT there is an office back up system which checks the results before the societies are informed and that has worked. It doesn't look like anyone missed out on a qualification, as has happened in other competitions, and the Show Secretary has appeased anyone who felt badly done to. Incidently were you the aggreived competitor? If not kindly desist from insulting and berating the very people who make your competing possible, the unpaid volunteers who are giving their time up as others have done for them. Instead of criticising get out there and do more and train others to your exacting standards or even better come up with a foolproof, unfailing system, but somehow I don't think it exists! But if you do I'll eat my steward's hat and look forward to seeing you present it on Dragon's Den! From Another Disgruntled Steward who is fed up of being blamed for all the wrongs in showing!
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Post by lucynlizzysmum on Jun 12, 2017 5:19:35 GMT
Hear hear Calerux
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Post by haggis on Jun 12, 2017 6:36:00 GMT
Very well said LLMUM ! i judge and steward, and can assure WHY that we do check and re check the marks and hand them to judge to check , people are going to have to lay off stewards - we get accused of being thick and fiddling the marks and for influencing the judges !
there is also a trend now with some shows NOT to offer or pay for a steward accommodation , this is being put forward at 1 of the late big county shows how appalling is this, Stewards do not get millage, they get a bottle of wine and a box of chocs , they work harder than a judge sometimes as they have to run the ring , check off who is allowed to enter, check for earrings etc, add marks , record results, and sort rosettes and dole out encouragement when a child is nervous!
some of our best Stewards who travel long distances to stand in a ring from 8 am until 4pm at lest deserve a bed for the night
if we are not careful our good stewards who are very experienced in the marks etc will just say sod it and then what will happen , i doesn't bear thinking about
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Post by chloesmum on Jun 12, 2017 8:11:30 GMT
As a steward and competitor yes of course it is a nightmare for all when mistakes have not been picked up and the wrong results given out. I am not sure what class this was or the details in terms of placings. I think it rare when it is the winner but yes it did happen a couple of times last season, not diminishing people placed further down who may have had errors but in qualifiers it is usually the winner that we must ensure ia 100% accurate. I agree it shouldn't happen with 2 judges and 2 stewards however we are human (although some competitors seem to think we are not!) and sometimes we all make mistakes. In my experience stewards and judges are mortified when it does happen and heaven forbid could put some stewards off from doing this thankless job in the future. As has been said stewards are often in the ring all day in all sorts of weathers and do it out of love for our sport. At most of the 'big' shows the stewards are usually panel judges so again are very experienced. I believe there was an article in H&H about the lack of stewards and Debbie Spears was putting together a directory of stewards? Didn't read it but saw the key lines. Experienced stewards are KEY to any ahow and perhaps shows should consider at least offering mileage. I appreciate for smaller shows this is yet more additional cost but for the larger shows with HOYS qualifiers should be considered. We all pay a HOYS levy maybe some of that could go to having a HOYS list of stewards who are available to officiate at qualifiers and perhaps the travel costs could come from that?
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Post by the showing register on Jun 12, 2017 9:19:01 GMT
We give all our stewards mileage, meals , accommodation , ad lib drinks , bottles of wine and total support etc competitors should remember without them they cannot go in the ring. It is all boiling up to be a big problem and if classes were run without marks the problems would instantaneously disappear and everyone would have a much better experience.
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Post by chloesmum on Jun 12, 2017 10:21:49 GMT
and that is great TSR and BSPS really looks after their stewards as well, I love doing my bit there stewarding classes that I rarely get to see all year. But for small area shows costs are huge already, we made a small loss at our RIHS show this year so do have to watch the money. Having said that I do firmly believe that all stewards should at the very least be given mileage with petrol costs so high. We are very thankful to our core team of stewards and this year had some lovely young people who gave up their time and were brilliant, we really need to nurture these people and as I said at the very least reimburse their travelling. P.S. One of our lovely new stewards was someone from HG who offered herself forwarding to steward - so thanks HG!!!
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Post by mcnaughty on Jun 12, 2017 16:00:36 GMT
No one volunteers and then purposefully does a bad job so any accusation of this type is ridiculous. It seems that on this occasion the qualification wasn't affected so again so spilt blood.
However, I go have a couple of gripes to throw into the pile here. Firstly, in this day and age why would mistakes happen with modern technology to hand?
and .... I get a bit fed up when people pull out the 'well do you steward yourself card' actually I would really like to steward - I have stewarded in the past, jump judged for many an event, been on numerous RC committees but at the moment I cannot as my daughter is too young to leave safely by herself at a show and as it is just her and me then my stewarding days are put on hold. Why would this make my voice any less 'heard' than others? Why if I am not actually at a show but I see a mistake on something posted should I not comment. Why if my daughter is not competing in a class can I not also comment? Surely the fact that we are not bias in some way should actually hold more weight.
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Post by catkin on Jun 12, 2017 16:08:25 GMT
Lots of very sensible posts here and (as I have repeatedly said!) I am not a fan of marks for all sorts of reasons and this is one of them. Using marks either as a judge or a competitor is very hard. It doesn't sound it, but it is. Nobody wants to make errors, but inevitably they will happen. IF we must proceed with marks, perhaps HOYS or BSPS or some enterprising soul, could come up with an app. Whilst technology doesn't solve the root problem, it might help in the meantime.
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Post by janetbushell on Jun 12, 2017 16:19:17 GMT
They already use a hand held computer for some classes at the RIHS but....
these still require the correct marks etc to be put in & in the correct place (!) & are a back up to the paper mark sheet system therefore an extra steward is required
Plus in bright weather (we should be so lucky!) the screens are notoriously difficult to see & can fail in bad weather - battery life if used for 12 hours (not unheard of for stewards at shows such as Cheshire!)
Plus cost & plus what happens if dropped/stood on/ etc
Logically it is an answer but all computers require humans to input & operate & it is us that make the mistakes
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Post by lucynlizzysmum on Jun 12, 2017 16:28:11 GMT
No one volunteers and then purposefully does a bad job so any accusation of this type is ridiculous. It seems that on this occasion the qualification wasn't affected so again so spilt blood. However, I go have a couple of gripes to throw into the pile here. Firstly, in this day and age why would mistakes happen with modern technology to hand? and .... I get a bit fed up when people pull out the 'well do you steward yourself card' actually I would really like to steward - I have stewarded in the past, jump judged for many an event, been on numerous RC committees but at the moment I cannot as my daughter is too young to leave safely by herself at a show and as it is just her and me then my stewarding days are put on hold. Why would this make my voice any less 'heard' than others? Why if I am not actually at a show but I see a mistake on something posted should I not comment. Why if my daughter is not competing in a class can I not also comment? Surely the fact that we are not bias in some way should actually hold more weight. I have no problem with people commenting, and like you I have been there with small children and could not volunteer - my gripe is this expectation that people will not make mistakes - it happens, to come onto social media and complain vociferously quite frankly is unfair. Perhaps doing away with the mark system is the way forward .... but I think you will find there are as many competitors for the system as against it. As far as modern technology goes it is only as good as the information which is inputted - it also on the whole doesn't deal very well with wet weather. If a mistake happens, without a doubt it should be rectified - but to point the finger all over social media is incredibly unfair. I have people saying to me they would like to have a go at stewarding but are frightened they will make a mistake. If they on top of that, thought that should they make a mistake it would be posted on social media, they will be less likely to have a go!
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Post by chloesmum on Jun 12, 2017 17:34:29 GMT
Have to say Janet that made me smile! I am a bit of a technophobe give me pen and paper any day so the thought of an App fills me with dread! By the time I have worked out how to use it the class will be finished! I also agree with sunlight etc as I often cannot use my mobile in bright sunlight so would be forever swopping or putting on glasses!! As has been said no one deliberately makes a mistake yes it is a shame if you didn't get the place you should have but you can still take pride in knowing what your result was and please don't take it out on the poor stewards or judges who probably go home remembering this one mistake and feeling bad about their day.
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Post by blagdon01 on Jun 12, 2017 17:51:11 GMT
Oh dear how very sad that the once wonderful fun pastime of showing has ended up like this. Glad I am out of it !!!!
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Post by Markless! on Jun 12, 2017 19:51:58 GMT
It is all boiling up to be a big problem and if classes were run without marks the problems would instantaneously disappear and everyone would have a much better experience. Read more: horsegossip.proboards.com/thread/211739/marks-again#ixzz4joqxQClWI agree showing register!! If marks were dispensed with life would be far less stressful/complicated and quite honestly what difference do marks make other than causing a huge amount of agro? People spend HOURS pouring over them, disagreeing with the mark the've been given and comparing it with the 49.999999 judge A gave them last week rather than the -55 judge B inflicted just because they weren't able to canter/gallop/halt as requested.
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Post by janetbushell on Jun 13, 2017 5:12:06 GMT
It is all boiling up to be a big problem and if classes were run without marks the problems would instantaneously disappear and everyone would have a much better experience. Read more: horsegossip.proboards.com/thread/211739/marks-again#ixzz4joqxQClWI agree showing register!! If marks were dispensed with life would be far less stressful/complicated and quite honestly what difference do marks make other than causing a huge amount of agro? People spend HOURS pouring over them, disagreeing with the mark the've been given and comparing it with the 49.999999 judge A gave them last week rather than the -55 judge B inflicted just because they weren't able to canter/gallop/halt as requested. People would still complain if they were unhappy about a class - just not about the marks! The complaints would still be on social media - don't forget before the recent rise of social media it just wasn't possible to share your feelings far & wide! I suspect that many who complain about marks have never shown in pony classes before they were used & perhaps don't realise they were brought in because of competitors who wanted judges to be accountable.
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Post by gillwales on Jun 13, 2017 6:12:52 GMT
Why does anyone bother to give up their time to either steward or judge? The pressure put on Stewards re the marks is ridiculous and will make mistakes more likely. Judges are there to judge not be mathematicians. I do recall the days prior to marks and the complaints about the judging then, but you know if someone is going to favour a particular pony for whatever reason then they will do so with or without marks so lets just get rid of them and if you don't like the results then do not show under that judge again.
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Post by ilovenatives on Jun 13, 2017 7:52:44 GMT
We have done a few of the PUK amateur riders this season and they seem to work well without marks . Perhaps judges could have a notes sheet especially in larger classes ( I'm sure some do already .
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Post by Markless on Jun 13, 2017 8:51:04 GMT
Yes Janet I'm sure they will still complain, people always have! However I don't think the idea that marks make for accountability holds much truth. I was around long before marks came in and things really haven't change that much, especially as conformation marks can change dramatically in a short space of time even with the same judge - could you remember what mark you gave in a class of 48 last week? The marks system especially with 2 judges who know they may not agree is sometimes very strange. I'd support a short comment from the judge rather than adding up marks and then at least people would have an idea who liked what and it may also indicate the judges knowledge or lack of same! I'd vote for no marks and less stress for all.
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Post by janetbushell on Jun 13, 2017 9:13:28 GMT
Yes Janet I'm sure they will still complain, people always have! However I don't think the idea that marks make for accountability holds much truth. I was around long before marks came in and things really haven't change that much, especially as conformation marks can change dramatically in a short space of time even with the same judge - could you remember what mark you gave in a class of 48 last week? The marks system especially with 2 judges who know they may not agree is sometimes very strange. I'd support a short comment from the judge rather than adding up marks and then at least people would have an idea who liked what and it may also indicate the judges knowledge or lack of same! I'd vote for no marks and less stress for all. Agree but would qualify your comment re conformation marks - this implies that this mark is fixed & will never change. I disagree - actual structure does not change per se, but other aspects can & do even in a week eg weight, movement (if ground very hard, deep etc) PLUS I give my marks also as a comparison to what else I have in my class, which is unlikely to be the same as the previous week. Suppose for arguments sake I consider an animal worth 30 marks or 35 marks - what happens if all the animals in my class that day are worth the same? if if give them all identical marks then IMO I have not judged them - if it were an In Hand class where I didn't use marks, then I would still place them & not have them all equal first. But I agree with you that marks do not provide accountability, I was just stating the reason they were introduced. I do think it is easier to decide what the judge thought about your animal on that occasion by looking at the range of marks, rather than the individual score ie one of the highest, the lowest or in the middle. With ride & way of going it may be quite obvious to the competitor if they have had a "blip", done the incorrect show, not galloped etc why they have a low mark, but perhaps less obvious where conformation & TYPE (so often forgotten) are concerned. Edited to add: then the arguments would probably be all about the comments! Plus the result is only derived from the opinion of one/two judges on that day - they should only judge what is in front of them on that day, not think back to what they did last week
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sarahp
Happy to help
Posts: 9,510
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Post by sarahp on Jun 13, 2017 9:50:12 GMT
I always thought conformation marks were supposed to be measured against the ideal for that particular breed, rather than other ponies in the class?
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Post by mcnaughty on Jun 13, 2017 10:42:37 GMT
I was more thinking of the phones we have in our pockets being used as a calculator rather than any kind of 'showing app'. All the stewards I have ever met have been wonderful - they sometimes get a bit stressed and shouty but dont we all! Some very good ideas though above about removing the marks all together.
I just think that some people take it all a bit too seriously and obviously when money is involved (and we all spend far too much on this activity!!) That does not help!
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Post by janetbushell on Jun 13, 2017 11:12:36 GMT
I always thought conformation marks were supposed to be measured against the ideal for that particular breed, rather than other ponies in the class? Absolutely sarahp - but there is variety in type & I stand by my explanation of why I am also comparing to others in the class - in mixed breed classes "is this highland a better example of a highland than this fell is of a fell" (IMO obviously) & in single breed classes I am marking which animal I feel is the best/joint best on the day. I am not trying to say that my method is the only way, or the best way, of assessing a class - just that it is my way & I hope that this may help any competitors when they look at the marks I have awarded
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Post by janetbushell on Jun 13, 2017 11:20:24 GMT
I was more thinking of the phones we have in our pockets being used as a calculator rather than any kind of 'showing app'. All the stewards I have ever met have been wonderful - they sometimes get a bit stressed and shouty but dont we all! Some very good ideas though above about removing the marks all together. I just think that some people take it all a bit too seriously and obviously when money is involved (and we all spend far too much on this activity!!) That does not help! BSPS Rule 49 - mobile phones etc must not be taken into the ring The next complaint would be the steward/judge was checking text on phone to see who was supposed to win - said tongue in cheek (I hope!)
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