jubi
Full Member
Posts: 224
|
Post by jubi on Jun 28, 2017 14:44:41 GMT
I agree with marks released after each class - we had a marks mix up last year in a HOYS class, placed first in the class waited for championship (6 hours after class) and was brought forward as top mare, only to be told afterwards that another competitor had been missed off the marks sheet altogether and was on equal marks to our pony it was to be placed first as a higher ride mark and our pony moved to second
The pony missed off had been pulled top, had the top ride mark but no one noticed in the ring - apart from the competitor who waited for the marks sheet to check why
If the marks had been put up after the class it would of been spotted sooner and a lot less heartache for the competitors involved
|
|
|
Post by Philippa on Jun 29, 2017 7:15:17 GMT
We have been to an affiliated BSPS show this summer where the marks were withheld until after the championship had taken place I think someone needs to send memos to shows regarding this as I've not yet been to a show where the marks have been released before the championships. Not too bad for us as there's only LR & FR in our section but at Cheshire last week we went to ask for marks in one of the M&M classes and were told we couldn't have then until after the championship and if we were going home we could email or send an sae to the office. So if anyone does happen to have the novice C marks it would be much appreciated if you could send me them or post them on here. Thanks.
|
|
|
Post by Jan2 on Jun 29, 2017 8:23:00 GMT
Unfortunately it's a HOYS rule.
|
|
|
Post by comanchedivanli on Jun 29, 2017 8:26:42 GMT
We have been to an affiliated BSPS show this summer where the marks were withheld until after the championship had taken place I think someone needs to send memos to shows regarding this as I've not yet been to a show where the marks have been released before the championships. Not too bad for us as there's only LR & FR in our section but at Cheshire last week we went to ask for marks in one of the M&M classes and were told we couldn't have then until after the championship and if we were going home we could email or send an sae to the office. So if anyone does happen to have the novice C marks it would be much appreciated if you could send me them or post them on here. Thanks. Philippa, they are on the website, follow the link and click on Mountain & Moorland mark sheets (not the HOYS mark sheet link) x www.royalcheshireshow.org/competition-results/
|
|
|
Post by Philippa on Jun 29, 2017 10:47:45 GMT
I think someone needs to send memos to shows regarding this as I've not yet been to a show where the marks have been released before the championships. Not too bad for us as there's only LR & FR in our section but at Cheshire last week we went to ask for marks in one of the M&M classes and were told we couldn't have then until after the championship and if we were going home we could email or send an sae to the office. So if anyone does happen to have the novice C marks it would be much appreciated if you could send me them or post them on here. Thanks. Philippa, they are on the website, follow the link and click on Mountain & Moorland mark sheets (not the HOYS mark sheet link) x www.royalcheshireshow.org/competition-results/Yay thank you
|
|
|
Post by kateanne0 on Jun 29, 2017 15:47:14 GMT
Personally I don't think the "top six" suggestion would solve the problem of an addition error out by 10 marks - particularly in WHP where there are often not that number of marks separating the top 10 animals. Janet, would it be possible to line up the competitors in the catalogue number order, as this will be how they are noted on the marks sheet? It would mean calling the competitors into the ring by their number and to stay in that order. A quick go round on each rein to warm them up with no overtaking and then into the line up. One of the stewards could do a quick back number check as they come into the line up to make sure everyone is still in the right order. This should make the adding and transferring of marks more simple and cause less mistakes? This would alleviate many gripes regarding marking and be deemed more fair to all competitors? It would also let the spectators have a bit of fun guessing the winner!
|
|
|
Post by gillwales on Jun 29, 2017 16:37:24 GMT
Personally I don't think the "top six" suggestion would solve the problem of an addition error out by 10 marks - particularly in WHP where there are often not that number of marks separating the top 10 animals. Janet, would it be possible to line up the competitors in the catalogue number order, as this will be how they are noted on the marks sheet? It would mean calling the competitors into the ring by their number and to stay in that order. A quick go round on each rein to warm them up with no overtaking and then into the line up. One of the stewards could do a quick back number check as they come into the line up to make sure everyone is still in the right order. This should make the adding and transferring of marks more simple and cause less mistakes? This would alleviate many gripes regarding marking and be deemed more fair to all competitors? It would also let the spectators have a bit of fun guessing the winner! This sounds like a good idea, however in a big class it could take a lot of policing, esp where some of the more ring crafty riders like to circle around to get behind a different coloured pony or one they think is not going very well... makes theirs look better?? Plus from a Judge's perspective it is nice to be able to call in those you think are going particulary well, especially when you get so many bays with red browbands!!
|
|
|
Post by Boredofwhingers on Jun 29, 2017 17:50:45 GMT
Why don't some of you people give Stewards a break.... if you can do better get on and do it, put your hands up and volunteer put your money where your mouth is, but I guarantee there won't be many who would be happy to stand in the ring all day to keep your SPORT going and then get kicked in the teeth.
|
|
|
Post by Philippa on Jun 29, 2017 18:15:03 GMT
Unfortunately it's a HOYS rule. It wasn't the HOYS class
|
|
|
Post by janetbushell on Jun 29, 2017 18:31:19 GMT
Janet, would it be possible to line up the competitors in the catalogue number order, as this will be how they are noted on the marks sheet? It would mean calling the competitors into the ring by their number and to stay in that order. A quick go round on each rein to warm them up with no overtaking and then into the line up. One of the stewards could do a quick back number check as they come into the line up to make sure everyone is still in the right order. This should make the adding and transferring of marks more simple and cause less mistakes? This would alleviate many gripes regarding marking and be deemed more fair to all competitors? It would also let the spectators have a bit of fun guessing the winner! This sounds like a good idea, however in a big class it could take a lot of policing, esp where some of the more ring crafty riders like to circle around to get behind a different coloured pony or one they think is not going very well... makes theirs look better?? Plus from a Judge's perspective it is nice to be able to call in those you think are going particulary well, especially when you get so many bays with red browbands!! Personally as I judge I would not be in favour of it for several reasons, but mainly because I want to see the animals in their own natural gait & rhythm on the go round & they would be governed by one animal acting as the "safety car" to use an F1 analogy, plus as Gill says - not very easy to police & could cause problems with bunching, without allowing competitors to use their ring to give themselves a space or actually "show" their animals. I don't think it would help overcome errors in adding, or even transferring actually, as many shows have competitors jumping in catalogue order already & there can still be errors in the marks. At Olympia the competitors line up in catalogue order to do their shows following a "free" go round, but there are only 40 animals split between the three sections & the marks sheets are taken away by the two stewards responsible for collating the marks - these results are kept secret from everyone until the actual presentation, but of course that is a couple of hours later, with ample time & quiet to do the adding, so to be honest I cannot see this system working at any other show, where qualifying classes could be much bigger & no designated space to work. When I steward & take the second/third mark(s) to put on the ride/jumping sheet, I always state the back number to my co steward or get them to say it to me, & then read back down the list (animals can leave the ring etc so the second mark sheet may not read the same or the same order for a variety of reasons) to check we have transferred correctly. Transferring to the hundred sheet is also checked this way, with one steward reading the back number & score & the other checking.
|
|
|
Post by Coffee mate on Jun 30, 2017 11:01:26 GMT
Just get rid of the marking system.It causes untold problems and will continue to do so. How can a mark tell a competitor their horse struck off on the wrong leg or had a conformation fault or what ever it is.anyone that stewards or judges are human,humans make mistakes and always will,and when you perhaps have thirty horses in a class and the organiser has a time table to stick to and your being told to get a move on its dam difficult.the powers that be seen to be trying to make showing into rocket science. Choose your line up and then a quick word of required to explain their position of required would save all this mess
|
|
|
Post by honeypot on Jul 4, 2017 23:38:42 GMT
As I nurse I am responsible for drug calculations, it used to be the norm for two nurses to check but over the years its changed. One nurse does the calculation, that means you check more thoroughly, as its you that is responsible, its your signature and your registration at stake if you are found to be negligent. I have been there when marks are added up, and often there its not enough space, time and a blooming calculator. The idea of calling back the top six, it could be the top ten or the whole class, is that the placings are not fixed until they are checked in the office, which is when most of the errors are spotted. So there is less chance of any one being upset but have the rosette or qualification taken off them. Everyone makes mistakes, we are all fallible, but that doesn't stop us wanting to prevent them and being open about how and why they are made because that can help change things for the better. I do not think being a volunteer should make you feel there less need to be 100% professional. Which I hasten to add most people are. I have organised things over the years and one of the most valuable things you can get is positive and negative feedback. Negative feedback, we all hate it, haven't we tried our best? If you are getting the same feedback, about the same things, there is something to think about. I would be looking a simple changes, finding out recording how many errors there are, there may not be that many and we just hear about them. Most important I would be telling people what was going to be done if anything. I have never stewarded with anyone (new to the task or experienced!) who didn't want to be 100% professional, but we are all human & therefore errors can be made. Regarding your point over drug administration, I am slightly disappointed that you imply that your main concern is loss of your own nursing registration, rather than the possible consequences to the patient, but I think I understand that your example is to illustrate the importance of checking. Again, however thorough, checking is still done by humans & sadly mistakes are still made & the medical profession is no exception, even when procedures are in place. I am sure there could be improvements in stewards training, particularly at some shows where some of the team only steward those classes at that show once a year, however these stewards can also bring a very useful fresh perspective on procedures & checks etc Judges are assessed on their ability to mark classes correctly by the BSPS when they apply for the panel and are responsible for signing the mark sheets as being correct, however these assessments will not be on sheets that might run to 4/5 pages in a HOYS WHP qualifier & are also on their own society mark sheets, not HOYS ones - which are different for WHP classes, so perhaps dummy classes should be provided as part of the assessment - & under time constraints & clipboard only situations? However - all who passed or failed this scenario would still possibly make a mistake in the future or always be 100% correct, as it goes back to my original point - humans do make mistakes. So do calculators & computers, as their results are only as good as the human who inputted the data to them. I find it slightly funny that because I do not state the obvious, that the right dose, is the right patient at the right time is the objective of this not said seems to make my comments invalid. The point that I was making was in such an important matter an individual is made responsible, as it tends to focus the mind. This is not to make the individual a scapegoat and get them struck off the register, we all make mistakes, the important thing is that we correct things when a mistake is made and review why and how the mistake was made. This to try and lessen the amount of mistakes, and if its preventable, think what steps can be made to further that end. I think that just saying 'we all make mistakes', so there is nothing to be done at the least is defeatist. So is nothing going to change? So these complaints about incorrect results will continue every year and nothing actually be done, or try to be done because we are all volunteers and we do not want to upset anyone?
|
|
|
Post by janetbushell on Jul 5, 2017 5:05:34 GMT
I have never stewarded with anyone (new to the task or experienced!) who didn't want to be 100% professional, but we are all human & therefore errors can be made. Regarding your point over drug administration, I am slightly disappointed that you imply that your main concern is loss of your own nursing registration, rather than the possible consequences to the patient, but I think I understand that your example is to illustrate the importance of checking. Again, however thorough, checking is still done by humans & sadly mistakes are still made & the medical profession is no exception, even when procedures are in place. I am sure there could be improvements in stewards training, particularly at some shows where some of the team only steward those classes at that show once a year, however these stewards can also bring a very useful fresh perspective on procedures & checks etc Judges are assessed on their ability to mark classes correctly by the BSPS when they apply for the panel and are responsible for signing the mark sheets as being correct, however these assessments will not be on sheets that might run to 4/5 pages in a HOYS WHP qualifier & are also on their own society mark sheets, not HOYS ones - which are different for WHP classes, so perhaps dummy classes should be provided as part of the assessment - & under time constraints & clipboard only situations? However - all who passed or failed this scenario would still possibly make a mistake in the future or always be 100% correct, as it goes back to my original point - humans do make mistakes. So do calculators & computers, as their results are only as good as the human who inputted the data to them. I find it slightly funny that because I do not state the obvious, that the right dose, is the right patient at the right time is the objective of this not said seems to make my comments invalid. The point that I was making was in such an important matter an individual is made responsible, as it tends to focus the mind. This is not to make the individual a scapegoat and get them struck off the register, we all make mistakes, the important thing is that we correct things when a mistake is made and review why and how the mistake was made. This to try and lessen the amount of mistakes, and if its preventable, think what steps can be made to further that end. I think that just saying 'we all make mistakes', so there is nothing to be done at the least is defeatist. So is nothing going to change? So these complaints about incorrect results will continue every year and nothing actually be done, or try to be done because we are all volunteers and we do not want to upset anyone? I feel you have misunderstood my reply - my entire point is that in any situation where human input is required mistakes may be made despite procedures being in placeEverything is done in the ring to try and avoid mistakes & they are unacceptable. However can you come up with an answer to prevent them? You have not so far suggested anything that does not already take place. I am not defeatist at all - if there is a way I would be thrilled! Please note I regularly mark for very large HOYS classes, act as a chief steward & I also judge them & so I do know the procedures, checks etc. I do have my preferred methods when I am personally involved & would like to think that under my watch (from whichever stand point) that mistakes (if made ) are rectified before the class is called, but one day they may not & I would be mortified & very upset, but I genuinely do not think I would be able to answer the question as to why it happened for that particular mark, when all others had been correct for the class/section/day other than "human error". Unfortunately your analogy of the medical profession does not stand up to scrutiny if you mean that procedures can prevent mistakes. Obviously the more procedures in place, then the likelihood diminishes, but where humans are involved then it really cannot be ever wholly eradicated. I totally agree with your points about trying to lessen mistakes, learn from them etc but I cannot believe that holding/making one person responsible will stop them happening. One (or two) people are already responsible - the judge(s). This returns the argument to the point that human input will at times & under an infinite number of variable scenarios result in an error being made. One thing I am fairly certain of however, is that good stewards are in very short supply for many reasons, but the more people are criticised the less likely they are to want to continue, and although you state that the idea of single person responsibility is not to provide a scapegoat in the event of errors, threads like this continue to demoralise those who stand in these positions, without providing any solutions to the problem.
|
|
|
Post by gillwales on Jul 5, 2017 7:19:31 GMT
Well said Janet
|
|
|
Post by thelwell on Jul 5, 2017 8:14:49 GMT
Well said Janet. Why cannot they see that it is not done intentionally. When you have been adding these marks up for hours you always get to a point when you have to re-add some numbers or check again. I am also afraid that we are going to lose all our wonderful stewards.
|
|
|
Post by ponymum on Jul 5, 2017 8:36:26 GMT
I don't think ANYBODY has a gripe with the stewards, they just want the marks to be added up correctly and displayed in a timely manner. I believe that in one of the Hoys whp classes recently the winner was actually 7th on the sheets because 10 marks were missed off. So we all want to avoid that terrible situation from occurring time and again.
|
|
|
Post by janetbushell on Jul 5, 2017 9:24:54 GMT
I don't think ANYBODY has a gripe with the stewards, they just want the marks to be added up correctly and displayed in a timely manner. I believe that in one of the Hoys whp classes recently the winner was actually 7th on the sheets because 10 marks were missed off. So we all want to avoid that terrible situation from occurring time and again. This is not a criticism of your perfectly valid opinion, but I certainly think the tone & content of some of the posts on this thread does show that some people do have a gripe with the stewards (& judges). Regarding the HOYS WHP you are referring to (& for the first time in many years I was not marking this class!) the error was picked up by the show administration on the day, but sadly not early enough. Devastating for all concerned. Regarding your "time and again" description of the situation, I would challenge this. Yes it does happen (this particular type of error & other marks errors) but from your description you imply that it is a common problem - but if you consider all the classes that were marked at this show this appears to be the only one not picked up in the class or the section. This does not make it acceptable by any means, but as a percentage of the number of individual competitor marks in this section it would be likely to be less than 1% & over the marks as a whole probably less than 0.01% but as above, no one has suggested a way to avoid this. Even if a full procedural inquest was held, I very much doubt that a definitive reason for the error would be found, unless no one checked that particular set of competitor marks, which does seem unlikely. Not said to make any excuses - errors should not happen full stop - but they do, & in all walks of life & four pages on social media will not stop it happening, but will possibly make sourcing good stewards even more difficult! I fully believe that no one ever wants to see this happen. Everyone would be thrilled to avoid it, but how to find a solution that avoids humans may well be impossible & they are the ones who make the errors.
|
|
|
Post by ponymad79 on Jul 5, 2017 9:59:48 GMT
Having read this thread with interest it seems we all want the same outcome for the marks to be correct but unfortunately human error happens occasionally . It seems when the error is realised it is rectified so there is nothing underhand it these mistakes .To use the analogy of a nurse is hardly relevant as no ones life is put in danger by the wrong person winning a showing class and i am a nurse .Thank you to all the hard working stewards and judges who give their time for us to enjoy our hobby without them we would not be able to compete .To sum up i have no solution other than doing away with marks in the showing classes.
|
|
|
Post by ponymum on Jul 5, 2017 10:49:49 GMT
Yes , Ponymad79 - this does seem the only solution to keep everyone happy!
|
|
|
Post by janetbushell on Jul 5, 2017 11:00:27 GMT
Yes , Ponymad79 - this does seem the only solution to keep everyone happy! Personally with very large classes I think marks are the best solution for a variety of reasons, but doing away with them would at least get rid of human errors in this area!
|
|
|
Post by serendipity on Jul 5, 2017 12:48:14 GMT
Yes , Ponymad79 - this does seem the only solution to keep everyone happy! Personally with very large classes I think marks are the best solution for a variety of reasons, but doing away with them would at least get rid of human errors in this area! Doing away with marks would do away with anyone knowing or being able to prove there had been an error. Judges could easily forget mistakes or even really good shows or conformation problems when making final call up but no-one could prove it!! Judges/stewards cannot be expected to remember everything in a large class so some sort of marking system is needed. Perhaps it should be "secret" marking and not for public view after the class.
|
|
|
Post by caz75 on Jul 5, 2017 18:56:50 GMT
My husband is an IT architect and has often wondered why marks are not done electronically via an app ( which he assures me would be no problem to build). This way marks are added electronically and could be published. Obviously it still is open to mistakes if numbers entered in error but less pressure on maths ability under pressure. Just a thought.
|
|
|
Post by ponymad79 on Jul 5, 2017 19:12:35 GMT
Sounds worth looking at caz75 perhaps the cost would be prohibitive but i don't know as have no knowledge of these things but we must be open to change if it's better .
|
|
|
Post by lucynlizzysmum on Jul 5, 2017 19:23:31 GMT
My husband is an IT architect and has often wondered why marks are not done electronically via an app ( which he assures me would be no problem to build). This way marks are added electronically and could be published. Obviously it still is open to mistakes if numbers entered in error but less pressure on maths ability under pressure. Just a thought. It still doesn't do away with human error - and if cost was reasonable, what about weather? WOuld work for indoor shows, but how often do we all get wet .....
|
|
|
Post by caz75 on Jul 5, 2017 19:39:55 GMT
I'm not sure I understand your point. Do you not use your phone etc when it rains? Paper is much harder to weatherproof. I agree it doesn't take away human error though ( just lightens the load)
|
|
|
Post by lucynlizzysmum on Jul 6, 2017 4:00:52 GMT
I'm not sure I understand your point. Do you not use your phone etc when it rains? Paper is much harder to weatherproof. I agree it doesn't take away human error though ( just lightens the load) Mobiles don't like the wet, don't like the very hot and don't like the cold. Also I would find somewhere to stand under if I needed to use my phone on a wet day or use it under my hood - not standing in the middle of a wet ring - I agree paper is not easy to weatherproof but a clipboard with a plastic cover is cheaper to replace than a mobile phone! Personally speaking I watched one of the apprentice's at work get in a right not doing figures on her mobile the other day - so I kindly lent her my big calculator which she had much more success with!
|
|
|
Post by gillwales on Jul 6, 2017 4:15:58 GMT
My husband is an IT architect and has often wondered why marks are not done electronically via an app ( which he assures me would be no problem to build). This way marks are added electronically and could be published. Obviously it still is open to mistakes if numbers entered in error but less pressure on maths ability under pressure. Just a thought. It is down to expense, plus still a system that requires human input therefore still capable of errors, albeit I would agree that no adding up required!
|
|
|
Post by janetbushell on Jul 6, 2017 6:12:00 GMT
To correctly input on a mobile would be extremely difficult due to the size of the screen, plus apart from poor weather, screens are difficult to read in bright sunlight & at some venues the signal is poor or non existent.
Battery life? If phone "dies" you have lost everything until it can be charged - is there electricity available plus mobiles are prohibited in the ring (I appreciate this rule could be amended if required by the governing body)
As I have already said - stewards/judges checking their phone constantly in the ring would no doubt give rise to suggestions of cheating by some & what about hacking the marks?
Plus, as you rightly point out it does not remove human error. What if the judge is puzzled by the resulting line up? it will be harder for them to have checked that the mark issued was in fact the mark recorded on a small screen, without delaying the next competitor, whereas at present a glance verifies what the steward has written & mistakes can be altered & initialled as required by the rules.
Plus the cost factor - 2 devices required for each ring, plus the correct sheets downloaded on the app for each class/section (there are several different types)
Excellent suggestion, but IMO not workable in the present day situations.
Please remember that any error in the marks has to be corrected - it does not alter the competitor's disappointment, or the other competitor's joy - but the final result is always correct
Edited to add: what if the device fails half way through a jumping round? Does that competitor lose their marks? Change them to paper? Be asked to stop? You would be surprised at the various scenarios that a good steward/judge has to deal with during classes on occasions
|
|
|
Post by waspblue on Jul 6, 2017 7:49:52 GMT
Finally...I've got an answer, robotic stewards and judges that cannot make mistakes, be rude or bribed to fix the class results LOL!!!
We could just hire them already programmed, not have to feed them or look after them in any way. Just wheel them out to do their job and once day is over, simply return to hire company for re setting etc. They'd never get tired or cranky, the heat, cold, wet etc wouldn't affect them and best of all they wouldn't make 'human errors' quite simply as they're not human haha!!!
SORTED!!
Off to research setting up my own company hiring out i-robots lol!!
|
|
|
Post by janetbushell on Jul 6, 2017 9:16:34 GMT
Finally...I've got an answer, robotic stewards and judges that cannot make mistakes, be rude or bribed to fix the class results LOL!!! We could just hire them already programmed, not have to feed them or look after them in any way. Just wheel them out to do their job and once day is over, simply return to hire company for re setting etc. They'd never get tired or cranky, the heat, cold, wet etc wouldn't affect them and best of all they wouldn't make 'human errors' quite simply as they're not human haha!!! SORTED!! Off to research setting up my own company hiring out i-robots lol!! I suspect that they would still be affected by adverse weather conditions!
|
|