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Post by stuck on Aug 8, 2017 19:10:30 GMT
Anyone recommend a sympathetic vet for measuring in south west. Very nervous horse and it will be tight. Thanks in advance
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pbp
Newbie
Posts: 19
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Post by pbp on Aug 9, 2017 18:41:25 GMT
Chris at Western Counties Equine Hospital is fantastic, really took time to settle the mare I took last week. Good luck ☺️
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Post by CarolineNelson on Aug 10, 2017 8:10:58 GMT
Anyone recommend a sympathetic vet for measuring in south west. Very nervous horse and it will be tight. Thanks in advance :) May I suggest - do lots of practice. Standing still, square and calm. Take the horse into different stables, different times of day. Get him/her used to a) strangers and b) a stick (you can improvise with a broom!). Both sides. If possible, travel the horse to a friend's place and take him/her into a stable, small barn or similar with no bedding on the floor - again, it's all positive experience. That way, the horse won't be surprised to go to a Vet's premises. Above all, stay CALM yourself. Drive carefully, arrive early at the venue so you have time and are not rushing. And, don't be tempted to use titbits, that encourages them to fiddle and faff about.
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Post by stuck on Aug 11, 2017 9:07:01 GMT
Many thanks Caroline for your excellent ideas, already doing most of those things. Any other suggestions for vets as would prefer not to use that practice. Thanks again
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Post by watertray53 on Aug 11, 2017 17:28:38 GMT
pm me
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Post by gillwales on Aug 12, 2017 5:05:45 GMT
go for a long hack just before removing shoes so relaxed and tired, cut down on hard feed a couple of days beforehand
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holmedown not logged in
Guest
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Post by holmedown not logged in on Aug 12, 2017 21:28:48 GMT
not sure where in Devon but know St Boniface at Crediton do height certs (was Wolfgar)
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Post by It's true on Aug 13, 2017 17:41:19 GMT
Just do what most do with the over height ones in the WHP classes, that's get a dodgy certificate of a dodgy vet. Must be Plenty out there as there are loads of overheight ponies in the classes....
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Post by stuck on Aug 13, 2017 22:01:44 GMT
Thanks to all for taking time to read and post on this thread but have decided not to bother measuring him in after much consideration and discussion with my business partner. Its true is quite right about over height ponies other than not its just workers but sadly every showing category with a height limit. I know how to get a horse measured, I know all the tricks in the book but as someone who until now has been scrupulously honest my entire life ,what I don't know is a dodgy vet, or in fact two ! Two measurements required regardless of age by different vets. This whole thread came about because as my partner and I had the perfect boy last year, lightweight cob a smidge over 15hh. Lightly showed previous year local level, bit of dressage, sj, xc etc. Last year we hit county level and found he was on average a hand smaller than the rest of the 15.1 class. After a summer of being told he wasn't big enough by the judges we made the sad decision to sell him on to a non showing home and start looking for a new project. Decided to go maxi cob as no hassle with certificate then. Going well local level but guess what being told he's too small for a maxi by judges already! Get him measured in lightweight category they all say. Before you all launch at me thinking I am some no naught etc, two of the judges to judge us this year are on the HOYS list so not "local" level opinions just local show! I teach and ride professionally, have shown at county level since 1979 so I know my stuff. Yes posting as a guest as like my work and want to keep getting it. Too disheartened to bother chasing this up, decided to see how we go with Diddy maxi cob and try some ID classes instead. No choice really as family and OH so disappointed that my partner and I were considering cheating in this way. JMB do not have the only two names I have been given listed so the ray of sunshine is that they are clearly cleaning house and the next generation of competitors will have the correct height animals. Thanks again for listening to my rant guys. Not really anonymous if I think about it, i'll be on the maxi cob half the size of the rest 🙂
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Post by gillwales on Aug 14, 2017 13:17:10 GMT
good luck
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Post by Taking the Micky on Aug 22, 2017 12:14:23 GMT
I thought the JMB was supposed to be the body for height certificates? If so surely it's up to them to do something about all the over height ponies and horses in the classes. ?Let's be honest some are well over height and it's making a mockery of the height rules. Must p1ss the genuine competitor off as well. Or are the JMB just another body that thinks it alright to fleece the showing fraternity.... mmmm yes it's probably that.....
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Post by ponymum on Aug 22, 2017 12:29:07 GMT
Just another issue with Hoys qualifiers and the societies who appear to do very little for the Law abiding members.......and turn a blind eye to the cheats.
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Post by CarolineNelson on Aug 22, 2017 19:28:01 GMT
I thought the JMB was supposed to be the body for height certificates? If so surely it's up to them to do something about all the over height ponies and horses in the classes.????Let's be honest some are well over height and it's making a mockery of the height rules. Must p1ss the genuine competitor off as well. Or are the JMB just another body that thinks it alright to fleece the showing fraternity.... mmmm yes it's probably that..... To put you disbelievers in the picture - the JMB is a 'not-for-profit' organisation, commenced in 1934, to govern the Height of Animals for Show & Competition purposes. The JMB's Board consist of "representatives" from the relevant Showing, Show Jumping & Pony Racing Authorities, with the occasional addition of co-opted members of the Board, co-opted for their knowledge, expertise and input. It is NOT "up to them" - as was described above - to "do something about the over-height ponies and horses in the classes". It is up to the relevant competitive Bodies to REPORT these so-called over-height Horses & Ponies - after which the Board can then act. If individuals feel very strongly, they can report said animals to their relevant Society or Association, who will then contact the JMB's Secretariat and Stewards. Simply bleating on Social Media will not resolve anything. NB: There is a tagged thread for JMB business in the Lounge area, but the poster has to be a member of HG to post.
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Post by stuck on Aug 23, 2017 6:41:18 GMT
Micky as Caroline states the jmb merely registers the vets and it is up to competitor bodies to complain, and individuals. They then take action measuring out horses and not allowing dodge vets to reregister. It costs £600 per animal to do this by the way. So taking a random class I watched a few weeks ago with 12 in it, 8 definitely over height and 2 more questionable , that's £6000 ! I struggle with entries as it is, can't find that money. So yes Caroline its down to the societies to act, arguably with judges and Stewards reporting them in the ring. Or shock horror maybe putting them down the line. Not going to happen right. At no point have I meant to impugn the JMB as they can not possibly know which registering vets are going to be bad apples, can only toss them out of the barrel when they find them. Which as I stated they have done with the two names I was given. They only way forward Is for the the rest of Us to bombard the societies with lists of over height competitors after every show. But sad truth Is if they can not fund this level of action. Under Grandstand Media rules no objections regarding height are accepted so it has to be the individual complainant who pays. So to conclude hopefully as there appear to be no dodgy vets listed currently that over the next few years we will see improvement in this area. Glass half full.
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Post by sjw87 on Aug 23, 2017 7:09:39 GMT
It is a difficult scenario as some genuinely measured animals can appear bigger due to the way they carry themselves and especially if the rider is petite. I'd be very disappointed to be put down the line by a judge who 'thought' my ride was overheight when that's genuinely not the case. If a height certificate isn't proof enough then what is?
I do agree that it's far too costly to lodge a complaint but at the same time, if you make it too easy then those with sour grapes will be asking for everything to be remeasured.
As above, the only real hope is that the weeding out of 'slack measurers' will have an impact over time. In thw meantime, I'm the one on an animal who is only 1cm out of the smaller height class so towered over by other exhibits!
Sent from my SM-A300FU using proboards
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Post by gillwales on Aug 23, 2017 9:17:59 GMT
When I probationed under a very well known and respected Judge; I was told it was not my job to assess the animal's height, but it's type, way of going etc. I would argue that over height animals are often not the type for the class they have been entered in and should be marked accordingly
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Post by There is a way on Aug 23, 2017 11:40:52 GMT
In my opinion the way to stop this is to have a measuring stick at the entrance of the ring - if you are over you are not allowed in - simples !!! get the steward to look as they tick off the competitors numbers as they enter
and no i dont go with the my animal is in show condition - it should still be under
This will stop all over height animals and will be fair for everyone
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Post by Not realistici on Aug 23, 2017 14:15:17 GMT
I think a lot has been done to 'clean up' measuring and certainly the number of vets in our area has decreased. I honestly don't think it is 'simple' to measure at side of ring for riddens. For a start when animals are presented for measuring they have no shoes, many are ridden in shoes how would that be accounted for? Also how do you suggest they allow for 'relaxing'? This like weighing riders at side of ring suggestion is just not practical, maybe some spot checks but not all entries in large qualifier classes it could take forever!
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Post by Taking the Micky on Aug 23, 2017 14:35:28 GMT
Hold on a minute Caroline, if the JMB in your words are the governing body then it is they that have control and are responsible. ? Your educated enough to know that a governor or governing body have ultimate control and responsibility........The JMB get the majority of money that is paid to the vets, that's a fact, as the governing body they should randomly measure classes at any show and be seen doing this. Maybe then the cheats, and there are droves of them , will think twice and go in the correct height. Time to clean it up, enough is enough. Or maybe let's do away with the JMB because it's obviously not fit for purpose... And why should the law abiding competitor be made to fund the re-measure of over height horses ponies ? Because that it what you are suggesting...!!!!!
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Post by gillwales on Aug 23, 2017 16:05:08 GMT
Hold on a minute Caroline, if the JMB in your words are the governing body then it is they that have control and are responsible. ? Your educated enough to know that a governor or governing body have ultimate control and responsibility........The JMB get the majority of money that is paid to the vets, that's a fact, as the governing body they should randomly measure classes at any show and be seen doing this. Maybe then the cheats, and there are droves of them , will think twice and go in the correct height. Time to clean it up, enough is enough. Or maybe let's do away with the JMB because it's obviously not fit for purpose... And why should the law abiding competitor be made to fund the re-measure of over height horses ponies ? Because that it what you are suggesting...!!!!! You could only do this if a farrier was at a show for ridden animals, then what would happen if when it came to re-shoeing the animal went foot sore? Which certainly could happen with no fault to the farrier if it had only just been shod? There is absolutely no point in having a go at another member, in this case Caroline Nelson. She is not responsible, and quite frankly it is posts like this that put people off of trying to help others; especially when the person hides behind a guest name. If you logged in you could send a private message which is a lot less offensive and you might receive a helpful reply. There are lots of "Not for profit" organisations, it does not mean you don't have to pay. One is Welsh Water... you should see my water bills! Will you be happy if a class you are entered in is randomly measured? What if you are entered into another class where height is not an issue? We are talking about showing, not a science. If you want an absolute go and do something else without involving horses or ponies as these cannot be considered a constant.
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Post by CarolineNelson on Aug 23, 2017 17:02:10 GMT
Hold on a minute Caroline, if the JMB in your words are the governing body then it is they that have control and are responsible. ???? Your educated enough to know that a governor or governing body have ultimate control and responsibility........The JMB get the majority of money that is paid to the vets, that's a fact, as the governing body they should randomly measure classes at any show and be seen doing this. Maybe then the cheats, and there are droves of them , will think twice and go in the correct height. Time to clean it up, enough is enough. Or maybe let's do away with the JMB because it's obviously not fit for purpose... And why should the law abiding competitor be made to fund the re-measure of over height horses ponies ???? Because that it what you are suggesting...!!!!! "That" was not at all what I was suggesting! Perhaps, not only re-read my (practical) post but also, go on-line to the JMB, and see the JMB rules & regulations for yourself. And, if you are still not satisfied, please contact the JMB Secretariat - or, become a member of HG and use the pinned thread which the JMB Sec has open to all questions regarding heights of Competition animals. This can be found in the Lounge area of Horse Gossip.
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Post by Taking the Micky on Aug 23, 2017 17:05:52 GMT
Sorry gillwales you are wrong, on two counts, firstly you don't need to take shoes off and have a farrier or vet present at a show to measure, how do you think they manage at breed shows such as the fell or highland??? They build in a room for error. I.e. If it's 13.1 with its shoes on then 13hds will be fine. Problem is we are talking up to 3inches on some of these over height animals. Secondly Caroline was not trying to be helpful, she was trying to be clever. I'm not have a go , I'm just pointing out the errors in her logic, as she is always the first to point out what she thinks are errors in other people posts. Caroline always has an opinion and wants you accept hers over yours, don't forget the door swings both ways. My opinion is as valid as the next persons. You don't have to like it.
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Post by CarolineNelson on Aug 23, 2017 17:22:24 GMT
Sorry gillwales you are wrong, on two counts, firstly you don't need to take shoes off and have a farrier or vet present at a show to measure, how do you think they manage at breed shows such as the fell or highland??? They build in a room for error. I.e. If it's 13.1 with its shoes on then 13hds will be fine. Problem is we are talking up to 3inches on some of these over height animals. Secondly Caroline was not trying to be helpful, she was trying to be clever. I'm not have a go , I'm just pointing out the errors in her logic, as she is always the first to point out what she thinks are errors in other people posts. Caroline always has an opinion and wants you accept hers over yours, don't forget the door swings both ways. My opinion is as valid as the next persons. You don't have to like it. To the person who names themselves "Taking the Mickey" - I was simply suggesting, that if you have a valid pint to raise, raise it through the proper channels. Not through social media. I advised that you search the JMB Website, which states all the current rules & regulations - which you can read and digest. And, to further suggest that you contacted the JMB Secretariat directly if you have a grievance. To add - given your blunt comment. There is no "error in [my] logic" as you so succinctly put it. Simply, your interpretation is that that I (maybe the JMB??) has a hidden agenda. There is none. All a JMB Measuring Vet seeks is the "lowest achievable relaxed height" on the day of measuring. The basic preparation of the animal will almost undoubtedly make a significant difference. That is to say, an unruly, untrained or 'spoilt' animal will not stand as well as a properly trained one. That, simply, is it. However - if an animal is - shall we say 'mal-presented' ??? Presenters of animals are taken at face value and, one would hope, they can be trusted. However, they have more to gain and less to lose than a Qualified, Practicing Veterinary Surgeon.
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Post by gillwales on Aug 23, 2017 18:57:52 GMT
Well taking the micky, yes you can have a half inch allowance for shoes, however you failed to take into account the other parts of my post. By the way who is going to pay for measuring a whole class?
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Post by waspblue on Aug 24, 2017 0:25:19 GMT
I have read this thread with great interest, as I remember being rather shocked when I took my pony to be measured - never having done it before - to be asked on both occasions by different vets, what discipline the pony was doing and how high or low would I like him to measure, in order to fit into particular classes. My answer was the same to both, in that he measures whatever he measures and I just would like a correct certificate. A friend said that it meant nothing and all vets do this, however, I still found it unacceptable to my mind. Another aspect of these over height animals is that of breeding future generations of pure bred ponies that will not conform to their breed standard as they will be too tall, due to coming from too tall sires/ dams or both, which risks spoiling our native breeds for the future. I can certainly think of a considerable number of ponies in my class that are well over 2" taller than my pony at 14hh and I simply do not accept all the crap as regards he's not relaxed, in show condition, the way he holds himself etc etc. I know the difference between a full up 14.2 pony and one that is 15hh, it's. blindingly obvious, this is one of many reasons I have decided to stop showing and register BD in which we are having a lot of success and I no longer feel I am wasting my time, money and effort on a totally pointless exercise that has been a thoroughly soul destroying this season between the cheating / fixing that has been so blatant to the over height, over weight and overbent ponies that are awarded all the top places. I am actually thoroughly ashamed of showing these days as it is a total travesty nine times out of ten, as it is all about who is connected to who etc etc, I've already written my article for H&H as to a certain animal winning a native breed class that is all of these things. It will be a successful change from the usual animals this producer who usually does completely different types and we'll all be surprised and amazed at how clever she is.....all except me who can see exactly what is going to happen and I'm no Mystic Meg that's for sure!!!
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Post by Its a joke on Aug 24, 2017 8:29:11 GMT
Wouldn't worry too much, most seem to be over height anyway. Believe there's currently a 14 SHP that came out in its Novice year as a 15 SHP. Ludicrous.
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Post by Not an issue on Aug 25, 2017 9:48:11 GMT
Exactly as taking the Micky says the ring side measuring works very well at the fell breed shows - extend to all would be interesting to sit back and see what happens.
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Post by Get real on Aug 25, 2017 13:11:24 GMT
If it is the case that animals should be measure ring side then let's have the annual/ full heights taken ring side in excitable and buzzing environments and stop wasting my money giving my Horse the time to relax in a quiet stable after I have travelled to get there... This measuring lark is such a contradiction !!! With us fools paying the funds!
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Post by CarolineNelson on Aug 25, 2017 16:09:49 GMT
If it is the case that animals should be measure ring side then let's have the annual/ full heights taken ring side in excitable and buzzing environments and stop wasting my money giving my Horse the time to relax in a quiet stable after I have travelled to get there... This measuring lark is such a contradiction !!! With us fools paying the funds! Not really. The Fell Pony Society's usual measuring Vet says that, (loosely quoted) 'many of the youngsters are at their first function. Maybe, their first time off the farm. Many have had minimal handling (and, reading between the lines, one would assume that he takes his life into his own hands and wears steel toe-capped boots!). Thus, it's a 'ball-park' measurement, absolutely not seeking the same sort of accuracy expected for an official Certificate. Back in the day, all NPS Riding Pony youngsters were measured at the big Affiliated shows - sometimes leaving the ring to be measured straight after their 'stand show' (thus, sharp from having just done their in-hand trot!). 3 Counties & NPS at Malvern, the Bath & West and the Royal of England come immediately to mind. Eventually, the latter was fortunately undertaken in an open barn, prior to the classes. For a great many years I've assisted Measuring Vets measuring Riding Pony / Hunter Pony Youngstock under NPS Rules as described. At one very big show in particular, the so-called 'pad' used to be next to a busy walkway and under a flapping gazebo! Now, we have a proper pad, laid to 'spec' - inside a proper stable. However, many of the young ponies are hyped up (mostly because many of their handlers are hyped up . . . ). There is a very small wooden sill across the bottom of the doorway and many handlers get stressed about the fact that their 'babies' don't want to go over it. Yet, they've just travelled to the show and gone up and down a ramp, haven't they?!? Done prior to the classes, the well-handled young ponies who have the benefit of experienced handlers, walk in, stand, get ID done, get measured, are issued with their Vet Card for the collecting ring steward - and leave. Simples. The under-trained ones, attached to stressy handlers leading them, take a little longer!. BUT - this is, again, a "ball-park" measurement. If (hypothetically) a potential 133cm 2yo HP is standing, 'sort of relaxed' at 137cm on the day, the owner has the option of moving it up to the next class on the day. But, this, just like the Fell Pony Society, is not a proper JMB Annual Certificate - which cannot be awarded until the pony is 4 and which is derived under much more aesthetic conditions. What I'm trying to say, is that there is very, very little comparison with the "FPS" show measurements at a show on a hillside in the rain - and the real thing conducted on an approved Pad with an approved Measurer - for an animal which is possibly, hopefully destined for HOYS, for an FEI Junior Jumping career or for a Jockey Club Association Pony Racing one.
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Post by Yes but on Aug 27, 2017 19:53:49 GMT
The FPS do not measure ponies presented with a JMB certificate according to the info they supply, so not a level playing field as clearly some have been previously handled/measured/practiced and some just don't come forward. Would be interesting to know if any are measured out on the day.
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