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Post by JadeCannon on Jul 21, 2009 19:30:42 GMT
I am sorry - this is not in relation to this topic but for gods sake everyone - I am sure everyone has sat on their pony bareback in the garden / stable and yes - i know it is safer with a hat but I just wish we could leave this nanny state behind!!! (Oh and I know I am going to get slated but for everyone who replies I would like you to confirm that you have NEVER sat on a horse without a hat) off topic again, i know, but i think most of us can remember getting on our ponies bareback and riding them aroound in headcollars without a hat. wish we were less worried these days Think you have worded it better than me - I wish we were less worried too!  |
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Post by hunter on Jul 21, 2009 20:20:57 GMT
back on subject i think this shoe could be worn on either foot !! im sure more slander cases could be brought by judges esp going by some of the missinformed and un true comments on judges i have read on here !!
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Post by cheekychops on Jul 21, 2009 21:43:03 GMT
Messydesk - dont sell yourself short. you pay the same entry fees for the same fair treatment as everyone else irrespective of the way you make your living. You deserve to be treated professionally. Im glad you feel appeased!!!!
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Post by Balvenie on Jul 21, 2009 21:49:04 GMT
The point of my post - and the point people are missing is that of course the judge is entitled to their opinion but what they are not entitled to do, especially when it is completely wrong, is to broadcast it to all and sundry. This IS slander. I never said I was going to sue for slander, I just pointed out that judges should be careful what they say in public. Judges cant win. We get blasted for NOT giving reasons, we get blasted FOR giving reasons. We SHOULDN'T have to justify our placings. I had a woman bound over to me, 2 wks ago, wanting to know why I had dropped her daughters horse from 2nd to 6th (last). This was in front of everyone and before the class had left the ring. Said horse had wrong legged 4 times, bucked and then p***ed off when asked to gallop. Did she really think that I was going to leave it 2nd?  ?? She was lucky I hadn't sent it out. If anyone asks me for a reason, then please be prepared to hear something that you probably dont want to hear. As for the slander....... most should think on about what they say about the judges! |
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Post by honeypot on Jul 21, 2009 23:10:44 GMT
I'm afraid showing judges are a law unto themselves. Dressage judges write comments all the time but most have them have learnt the skill to be tactfull, and there are judges sessions where a group of judges will mark a test and then discuss the marks they gave.Show judges seem to like to different.
I steward a bit and already know what some judges will put forward no matter how c**p it goes,because they like that style of pony.
I thinks show judge have to act proffesionally, most are, the ones who are not should be complained about, but remember they do it for little or no money, they are not paid your entry fee.
The average age of most judges must be 60+ and they do it for love not money.
On the other subject, hands up all those who have sat on a pony without a hat, or let their children do so?
I hope the ones that haven't have never broke the 30 speed limit either, far more likely to kill a child.
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Post by sallyw on Jul 22, 2009 8:33:19 GMT
Medic ou are missing the point. As a judge you are entitled to give your reasons for not placing a horse, if asked. What you cannot and I am sure you would not do is to criticise a pony who hs behaved impeccably, frighten and upset a child and then make sweeping statements which are completely untrue in front of other people. You are completely justidied in moving a horse down who went on the wrong leg etc and in telling the owner your reasons but I am sure you would not have gone up to them and made comments which wer untrue and damaging. Go back to eskvallystud's post - what if potential buyers had been there looking at the pony - they would possibly have thought the judge had seen something they had not and been put off. If I knew how to post video on here I would post the video of the class. You would all be very suprised to see how the class went and would be scratching your heads to know why anyone would ever think our pony is dangerous!
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Post by girly on Jul 22, 2009 8:49:05 GMT
"Anything in life which is subjective is always going to be open to differing opinions"
Messydesk the above is what you said on another thread so why can't you accept you own opinion in this case. You thought your pony behaved impeccably but the judge didn't. Maybe the judge was rude but you asked them in front of others and got their answer. Perhaps the judge felt threatened by you, some of your posts can come over on the agressive side although I don't think you are. Why not move on and avoid that judge. Going on and on isn't going to change what happened.
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Post by Balvenie on Jul 22, 2009 9:49:42 GMT
I'm not missing the point. Can understand what you are saying. Wasn't there so can't say one way or the other.
If you want to speak to a judge, then do it after they have finished judging and away from everyones earshot. I'm not saying you did, but some people come bounding across and their whole manner is something to be desired. This DOES annoy!
Children do have a way of misunderstanding what is being said to them. The only comment i will ever make to a child is an encouraging one. They are sensitive creatures, after all!
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Post by merryment on Jul 22, 2009 11:34:26 GMT
not being funny but it applies both ways about saying things out of other peoples earshot,read my post earlier about judge shouting out aloud my daughters mark when doing the placings at a county show.
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Post by pigsear on Jul 22, 2009 12:03:07 GMT
If you want to speak to a judge, then do it after they have finished judging and away from everyones earshot. I'm not saying you did, but some people come bounding across and their whole manner is something to be desired. This DOES annoy! Here here!! It is sometimes how its asked for! |
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Post by sallyw on Jul 22, 2009 12:15:48 GMT
Girly - the pony did behave impeccably and I have the video to prove it. Of course the judges opinion is subjective but the whole point of this post is that when judges are making comments they should not be defamatory - whatever they are. I go back to the fact the the Chairman of the Show - who was present when the exchange took place has rung me with a full apology for the judges behaviour and comments. I have moved on from that experience but still think that the whole point of this thread is a valid one - watch what you are saying in public!
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Post by gypsy1 on Jul 22, 2009 13:06:58 GMT
Here here!! It is sometimes how its asked for! I agree with that totally ..
ONe person's cup of tea is another one's poison ..
If your at teh top of line thten the judge liked you , if your at the end of have been dropped there was something the didnt like .
After all as i said you eneter a pony/horse in a class to get that judges opinion ..
Like it or Lump it !!
All this talk of slander and bad mouthing judges is just making moutains out of mole hills ...
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Post by solitaire on Jul 22, 2009 16:00:43 GMT
I really agree if you are not happy with comments being less than you require then don't ask the judge, they are only human. I asked a judge a few years ago why my mare was dropped as she was 2nd and ended up in the back line - judge was very rude and said she looked good to start, went awful in the individual show and if I wanted to show at this level sell it to a riding school and buy something better - yes I was very upset but did not put it all over the internet - it was just one persons opinion - its no wonder people do not want to be judges anymore when they are slagged off constantly - yes some judges are not good and have faults but such is life.
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Post by sallyw on Jul 22, 2009 17:40:51 GMT
Why is no-one reading what I am saying. The judge was making comments which were completely unjustified both to the child in the ring and later to me. The apology from the Chairman of the show demonstrates the fact that this is not about me not liking what the judge said but about juges making totally uncalled for and unreasonable comments! I repeat - I do not care what she thinks about my pony - we think she is an absolute star and in more than fifty years of showing she is the most delightful little pony ever. What I care about is anyone - judge or whoever- slagging off her pony and upsetting my young grandchild.
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Post by cheekychops on Jul 22, 2009 18:44:42 GMT
MEDIC - You are simply wrong.....any competitor can and should be able to ask you how you have made your desision. I also judge and feel it is a very useful learning opportunity when someone asks for a critique. If you take a public judgin appointment, you have no right to expect competitors to keep your comments confidential. Of course I am VERY respectful of the competitors as they are the shows customers!!!! Messydesk, your are correct to expect an honest, professional, accurate and constructive appraisal of your pony. You paid for it.
Solitaire, messydesk started this thread as a discussion point on a "discussion forum" of course its all over the internet, thats the whole point!!!
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Post by hunter on Jul 22, 2009 18:52:05 GMT
I agree i have no prob giving helpfull advise to anyone who should ask for it , weter or not they agree with it is down to them but if they ask for honesty then they will get it ,what i do object to is when having been asked for my opinion they then stand and disagree with you and try to argue !!! I also think if people are going to slag off judges on here and name them i think it should only be allowed if they do it under there own name !!
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Post by hs on Jul 22, 2009 21:04:38 GMT
i am afraid if you ask a judge why you were not placed as highly as you felt you deserved in front of an audience you have to accept you may get an answer you disagree with or are not happy with. The pony may be really safe but if it's way of going gave the judge the impression it was a coiled spring about to buck then that is what the judge has seen and it is her opinion even if the pony has never bucked or misbehaved. I have been in classes were this has happened and the judge said it was the pony's conformation and the competitor started disagreeing with the judge in front of the other competitors and it was very unsporting. Many judges when asked give very helpful comments and if competitors start disagreeing with them then it may put judges off giving feedback. I think transparency is important and judges should be able to give honest answers without worrying about backlash from competitors. By providing feedback to disgruntled competitors it can help judges in that at least by giving a reason people don't think the judge is facey. How long will it be before a judge is sued for slander when they open their mouth too loud in front of others? The judge today told my grandughter in the ring that her pony was "extremely naughty" when placing her below a pony which bucked and napped. Why you might ask - so I did! I was told in front of a number of other people that the pony "had its back up all the time" and was "threatening to buck". It was declared "not safe to put a child on". This pony very naturally carries itself and moves in a very light way of going (she would not crack an egg, a better informed judge said). She is not threatening anything. Its just her way of going. HOWEVER - the point of this is the judge should not have criticised the pony to the child in the ring (this is FR we are talking about) and should have never ever then made slanderous comments about the pony in public WHATEVER HER OPINION. The picture below of the so called unsafe pony says it all! ![]() - and yes you are right there is no saddle or bridle!http://i266.photobucket.com/albums/ii274/Fetherstonphoto/Image0004.jpg [/IMG][/quote] |
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Post by Balvenie on Jul 22, 2009 22:01:00 GMT
MEDIC - You are simply wrong.....any competitor can and should be able to ask you how you have made your desision. I also judge and feel it is a very useful learning opportunity when someone asks for a critique. If you take a public judgin appointment, you have no right to expect competitors to keep your comments confidential. Of course I am VERY respectful of the competitors as they are the shows customers!!!! Messydesk, your are correct to expect an honest, professional, accurate and constructive appraisal of your pony. You paid for it. Solitaire, messydesk started this thread as a discussion point on a "discussion forum" of course its all over the internet, thats the whole point!!! Kirstenraw, as this is now getting abit of a habit. If you have a problem with me them pm me. Think you will find i'm not wrong and DO know what i am talking about! |
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Post by donkeydo on Jul 22, 2009 22:20:27 GMT
I agree i have no prob giving helpfull advise to anyone who should ask for it , weter or not they agree with it is down to them but if they ask for honesty then they will get it ,what i do object to is when having been asked for my opinion they then stand and disagree with you and try to argue !!! I also think if people are going to slag off judges on here and name them i think it should only be allowed if they do it under there own name !! Quite agree Hunter. If as acompetitor if you havent got the place that you thought you may have and you ask the judge why. You must be prepared for the answer whether you are goint to like it or not! Just take it with a big smile on your face, work on the comments or ignore them! |
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Post by hunter on Jul 22, 2009 22:25:51 GMT
as judges we are acctuly advised NOT to give comment because of reprecussions ,we have been advised not to even present the rosetts our selves and in fact to get stewards to give them out so as to avoid getting into situations ,i find this a very sad reflection !!!!
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Milliesmum
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COCKERP00S RULE!!!
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Post by Milliesmum on Jul 22, 2009 22:30:28 GMT
I think it perfectly acceptable to approach a judge after a class and ask for constructive criticism - however else are we to know what we need to work on to improve our placings? But never EVER argue with the judge - it's the height of bad manners! Thank them politely for their time and move on!
In fact at local level, I think all clubs should have a 'comments' section on their mark sheets, and judges should endeavour to provide feedback whenever possible - or how will anybody ever improve?
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Post by Balvenie on Jul 22, 2009 22:38:24 GMT
I think it perfectly acceptable to approach a judge after a class and ask for constructive criticism - however else are we to know what we need to work on to improve our placings? But never EVER argue with the judge - it's the height of bad manners! Thank them politely for their time and move on! In fact at local level, I think all clubs should have a 'comments' section on their mark sheets, and judges should endeavour to provide feedback whenever possible - or how will anybody ever improve? Spot on MM! |
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Post by sallyw on Jul 23, 2009 9:11:41 GMT
Go back to the beginning! I did not ask the judge for her opinion on my pony - I aed her to tell me what she had said to my grandaughter. She repeated what she ahd said but volunteered a string of derogatory remarks as well, in front of a considerable number of other people. I am going to say this for the last time - the point of this thread is that judges should not criticise ponies that they have been judging, in public. Someone, somewhere will sue!
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Post by hs on Jul 23, 2009 9:34:54 GMT
Sorry you are not very clear in your original post - it does say you asked the judge why the pony was not placed higher so you did ask for the information she did not just come up to you and start telling you her opinion. Agreed she probably should not have told child the pony was dangerous if the child did not ask for feedback and was alone in the ring.
However as an adult if you ask someone's opinion in a public place then you should realise there is a risk of other people overhearing the response and if you child is with you that they may also hear something they may not be happy about.
If she had refused to saying anything at risk of getting sued then you would probably still be complaining this time saying that the judge should have told you why the pony was not placed higher!
I think if children are going to show it is handy if they are taught to understand that they are not always going to win and accept that although their pony is to them the best pony in the ring other people may not alway think the same - like some people thinking bananas are horrible and others loving them and just because someone says a banana is discusting does not mean it is to everyone.
I would rather an honest negative comment than some fluffy put down like pony just not my type which means verry little.
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Post by thecremellosociety on Jul 23, 2009 9:46:02 GMT
If you make any constructive critisim on any animal in front of you, i only answer when asked and always state IN MY PERSONAL opnion, if they are rude or want more details etc, then i will say you have asked my opnion on this day, im not here to tear your animal to shreds verbally, but you could do this maybe to improve ....... I wouldnt be rude, the nly time i have verged on rude and bit my tongue is on approaching a lead rein pony, the only one in some local qualifiers, i had a normal skirt and hat on and pony went vertical when i approached it, once shild had stopped screaming, i said in my opnion this is not a lead rein pony, or if it is it needs some major schooling as no pony should be phased by a person in a hat and skirt let alone a LR pony !!! I was unable to not give the qualification out as they had entered and were only one forward and didnt know where i stood as no rules were written on weather a judge could withold it in these circumstances for these classes, so gave the card but made it known to the mother, i was far from happy, but still smiled at the child and gave her her rosette and said well sat !! rather than well ridden as pony was a horror !! In My Opnion !!! |
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Post by dizzydora on Jul 23, 2009 9:53:09 GMT
I think there are some unfair comments against messydesk on this post. From how i read it, all messydesk was saying was that judges should be carefull not to get personal with what they are saying especially to a child. I dont think messydesk was bothered where she came but was more bothered about the unnecessary comments that the judge has made.
Yes i agree that if a judge is asked for feedback then they are entitled to their opinion but a little tact wouldnt hurt, especially to a child.
Ive been showing for 20 years now at all levels and to be honest i never really ask for feedback because i generally know why i was in the place i was, and on the times where i have been puzzled ive just left it. As long as my horse behaves that's all i ask. A judges opinion isnt going to make me love my horse any less or rush out and buy a diferrent one or 'better' one in their eyes just because they didnt like him.
By all means give your opinion, just remember though it is a human being your talking to and they have feelings to...a little tact remember ;D
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Post by sallyw on Jul 23, 2009 9:58:59 GMT
Thank you - someone at last sees what I am saying!
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Post by gypsy1 on Jul 23, 2009 10:09:40 GMT
Sorry Dizzydora ,
It is not just a case of tact in my opinion ,
The word SLANDER has been mentioned and not just unhappy with the response of the judge .
The opening of this topic to me was not about being upset or hurt BUT it was about judges being sued for slander because they offered their opinion when asked ..
Your d**ned if you do and d**ned if you don't !!
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Post by heathers on Jul 23, 2009 10:24:34 GMT
i think some of you are being too hard on messydesk.
even if she did ask the judge why she was put down it is between her and the judge and not the other competitors
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Post by dizzydora on Jul 23, 2009 10:28:05 GMT
Gypsy1 - i mean in general, a bit of tact wouldnt hurt.
I've seen it from both sides as i judge at local level to when im not busy showing & i know that i wouldnt start getting personal about someones animal. If i couldnt say anything constructive (and believe me there have been times when ive just thought OMG) i would simply say well done & hand them the rosette, then if i was asked why id placed them where they were, a simple 'its not really my type' or something along those lines would be fair i think.
But again, all of the above is just my own personal opinion, everyone is different!!
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