Milliesmum
H G Addict
COCKERP00S RULE!!!
Posts: 23,901
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Post by Milliesmum on Jul 23, 2009 10:35:20 GMT
There's nothing wrong with saying something like 'He's a lovely sort, you need to work on x, y or z.' Many people, especially at local level, need the feedback in order to improve, and most appreciate the advice. As long as it's constructive I can't see how anyone could take offence.
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Post by hs on Jul 23, 2009 10:58:08 GMT
True but if you are in a place near other competitors then they might overhear and you have to appreciate that. If you really don't want anyone to accidently hear then you ask to go to a private place where no people are near by. We live in a country where free speech is encouraged and people are entitled to have their opinions without being sued. Slander is deliberatly saying something you know is not true about someone eg that person's pony is grey when you can see it is bay to another person if it is verbal it has to be said in a way that the person understands. I would imagine in the case in question - people overhearing is not the same as deliberating saying something to another party. If I say to a person your pony is grey when it is bay and someone walks past and overhears that is not slander whereas if I go up to a passer by and say that pony over there owned by Mrs X is grey when I can clearly see it is not and I know the difference between bay and grey and I said to make the owner look bad it is slander. You would also have to prove that it was malicous and in this example I doubt that the judge was deliberatly trying to broadcast other people something she knew not to be true. I imagine if the judge says in my opinion that pony is dangerous that would be an opinion and not a fact where saying that is pony is dangerous is stating a fact. That is why journalists are so careful to say in my opinion before they say something. controversial! Saying "in my opinion the pony is dangerous" is not an untruth or false statement if that is what the judge believes. i think some of you are being too hard on messydesk. even if she did ask the judge why she was put down it is between her and the judge and not the other competitors |
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Post by sallyw on Jul 23, 2009 10:59:29 GMT
......"Good morning Mr. Lawyer, someone said something nasty about my pony, and I want to sue for slander, can I make an appointment to come and see you, hello?....hello?.....anybody there?...hello..."
Click.
Oh Overbent - you obviously dont know much about solicitors - and before anyone starts some of my best friends are solicitors - they would be very unlikely to turn a case away. People sue people (as I know to my cost) for the most ridiculous things and even if it would be ludicrous to sue a judge for defamatory comments, the whole point of this thread is - and I say it again - one day someone will and it will change the face of showing for ever. Therefore judges need to be careful what they say.
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Post by heathers on Jul 23, 2009 11:01:47 GMT
i agree if someone overhears that is different than the judge delibritly saying it out loud
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Post by gypsy1 on Jul 23, 2009 13:39:15 GMT
JUdges should be careful waht they say I agree
and competitors should be careful what they ask and where ,
At the end of the day the judge knows that there is only going to be one truly happy competitor leaving the ring and not only do they have to judge the class as they see fit but have a list of reasons why and where ,
How many times i have seen a judge pounced on and been ppounced on within feet of stepping out the ring ,
Whether the judge was tactless in theiir comments it is not a case for slander to offer their opinion when asked ..
No wonder there are less judges available and gone are the days of team spirit and May the best pony /horse win ..
I feel the face of showing sadly is changing already . !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
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Post by hs on Jul 23, 2009 18:14:39 GMT
Maybe giving feedback and dealing with difficult people should be included in training for judges if it is not already included. The best way to give negative feedback it to sandwich it between two positive comments - your pony has lovely conformation but looked tense and about to buck but if this was resolved and the pony went in a more relaxed way I would definately have placed her higher.
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Post by heathers on Jul 23, 2009 19:41:20 GMT
good point hs
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Post by sallyw on Jul 27, 2009 7:58:52 GMT
Unvelieveably this is not going to go away! A rumour has got round that our pony was completely wild at the Warwickshire Hunt Show and one person even told me she had heard that we were thrown off the show ground. Let me say here and now - the pony behaved impeccably - the judge made comments which were way out of line and sadly lots of people overheard them and with the Chinese whispers effect even these incorrect comments have been blown out of all proportion. I DO NOT CARE WHAT SHE THINKS ABOUT MY PONY! However - please do not spread untrue rumours - those of you doing it know who you are and you are making me think seriously about giving up showing altogether. There is no fun in all this b****ing.
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Post by trickerty on Jul 27, 2009 8:51:56 GMT
Messydesk I too had to approach a judge recently when my niece came out of a first ridden class CRYING and I was told by the judge that although the first pony only cantered on one rein and wrong legged it the jockey was only small and because my niece was bigger in size she would have liked to see a much better show than she did even though she cantered on both reins on the right leg and pony did not nap or put a foot wrong, when I told her the class is judged on AGE not SIZE of child and you could have a small child that was older than she looked or had been even riding longer than the larger child I had a shrug of shoulders and was told I'm sorry but I don't agree with you and my decision if final, and my other pet hate at moment is unsound ponies and horses being put up!!!!!!!!!!!!
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Post by heathers on Jul 27, 2009 8:54:21 GMT
OMG.some people are pathetic. folk just love a bit of gossip and then add their bit to it as well. there is a child involved here as well.leave them alone. messydesk dont give up showing,you go and enjoy. i hope the people who spread these rumours are proud of yourselves.its gone too far so back off.  |
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Post by wornthetshirt on Jul 27, 2009 9:00:03 GMT
Maybe giving feedback and dealing with difficult people should be included in training for judges if it is not already included. The best way to give negative feedback it to sandwich it between two positive comments - your pony has lovely conformation but looked tense and about to buck but if this was resolved and the pony went in a more relaxed way I would definately have placed her higher. It is included in training and assessment for panels such as the NPS & BSPS, as a matter of course. Other panels too, probably. |
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Post by poniesrus on Jul 27, 2009 11:30:50 GMT
It's very simple - ones can say the same thing either bluntly to upset someone or very diplomatically causing no offence.
It sounds as though this judge was blatantly bloody rude and blunt and probably got her degree in 'tact and diplomacy' from Suddam Hussains school training.
Yes, a judge is welcome to give feedback (we've always welcomed it, beit good or bad) but it can be put in such a way as to cause no upset and be helpful. I feel there is no need for rudeness, especially in children's classes as they don't understand - all they hear is that someone is basically telling them their beloved pony is crap and no child should have to hear that, as it can be enough to turn them away from the sport entirely.
Tact and diplomacy - that's all that's needed.
We once had a super judge in a shetland pony class, my daughter was showing (she was 7 at the time) and he congratulated her, shook her hand and gave her the rosette. She came out the ring smiling like a cheshire cat. He'd obviously spotted that I was 'mum' and came over as daughter was making her way back to trailer and said to me that pony was super, extremely well behaved and was 95% correct, but just turnt one back leg a bit (which we knew), so that was why he had placed her down the line a bit, but he went on to add that he wouldnt' dream of telling her that, as he could see the love and admiration she had for her pony. He suggested to me that we do things like shetland LR and FR classes and young handlers classes, as his 'turn of hoof' wouldn't come in to it then. He actually thought the pony was super and has since had him top of the line twice in LR classes !!
Now, that, to me, was a very diplomatic judge - he wanted to explain his reasoning, but didn't want to cause any upset and it was all discussed very quietly at ringside out of ear shot of other competitors. I would go back and show under him anyday - he is a true gent !!
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Post by heathers on Jul 27, 2009 11:37:14 GMT
poniesrus,that sounds like the type of judge that will gain a lot of respect
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Post by poniesrus on Jul 27, 2009 11:49:51 GMT
Indeed Heathers. He's a lovely gent, breeds and judges shetlands and is always so very polite and friendly.
He's very 'old school' - likes all the competitors to just acknowledge him and him back to them as they enter the ring, always speaks and shakes everyones hand (no matter how little a person they might be) as he hands out rosettes and actually loves to see children showing their ponies and is one of the few who will place a good child/pony combo over the adult/pony combo (which very few judges will do it seems).
He could teach some of these young 'whipper snapper' judges a LOT when it comes to manners and judging technique !! You never hear anyone coming away from a class he's judged and having a bad word to say.
We took his advice with our shetland gelding - we stick to LR/FR/Young Handler classes (as my girls adore this pony - he's their soulmate and they love sprucing him up for a day out) and his advice has greatly helped us over the past couple of years.
The other thing is that despite him breeding his own shetlands (not quite as many these days as he's getting older), he doesn't show them ..... he gave up showing when he started judging !! Something else which means you have absolutely no doubt that he has placed you fairly and correctly.
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Post by ladybird on Jul 27, 2009 12:40:55 GMT
i think i may recognise him from your perfect description ( we show shetties a bit and love them a lot!!) He is a true gentleman, oh for good old days, how i miss them.
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Post by viking on Jul 27, 2009 14:40:24 GMT
oh for good old days, how i miss them. I think a lot of us would agree with you on that ! |
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Post by agent on Jul 27, 2009 15:31:15 GMT
How long will it be before a judge is sued for slander when they open their mouth too loud in front of others? The judge today told my grandughter in the ring that her pony was "extremely naughty" when placing her below a pony which bucked and napped. Why you might ask - so I did! I was told in front of a number of other people that the pony "had its back up all the time" and was "threatening to buck". It was declared "not safe to put a child on". This pony very naturally carries itself and moves in a very light way of going (she would not crack an egg, a better informed judge said). She is not threatening anything. Its just her way of going. HOWEVER - the point of this is the judge should not have criticised the pony to the child in the ring (this is FR we are talking about) and should have never ever then made slanderous comments about the pony in public WHATEVER HER OPINION. The picture below of the so called unsafe pony says it all! ![]() - and yes you are right there is no saddle or bridle!http://i266.photobucket.com/albums/ii274/Fetherstonphoto/Image0004.jpg [/IMG][/quote] I hope that the next time you ask a judge for her opinion, he/she tells you that she is not prepared to comment in front of others in case she is sued - then see what the others around you think!! Perhaps it would have been better not to ask in front of others in the first place - exactly what did you expect her to say  |
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Post by grotty on Jul 27, 2009 17:10:54 GMT
I'm not missing the point. Can understand what you are saying. Wasn't there so can't say one way or the other. If you want to speak to a judge, then do it after they have finished judging and away from everyones earshot. I'm not saying you did, but some people come bounding across and their whole manner is something to be desired. This DOES annoy! Children do have a way of misunderstanding what is being said to them. The only comment i will ever make to a child is an encouraging one. They are sensitive creatures, after all! I tend to ask the judge when they are handing rosettes out as it is the only time when they seem to have a second, is that the right time?? You can't after you have gone out of the ring as often they are judging the next class. Just want a judges opinion?? |
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Post by Balvenie on Jul 28, 2009 8:11:12 GMT
Grotty I dont mind being asked whilst giving the rossie out. What I do object to is when competitors ask my opinion- which at the end of the day thats all it is, my opinion- and then start 'mouthing' off in the ring. Or, if someone comes bounding across the ring- more often than not- intent on doing nothing but argue.
It's nice when competitors do take notice of what you say. Judged a cracking little pony at the weekend. In its first class it was naughty. I explained why i had moved it down the line and also gave a suggestion of what to try. The pony won its next class and ended the day res supreme!!
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Post by cassie30 on Aug 3, 2009 12:32:29 GMT
Messydesk i am pleased you got your apology.
I have friends in the legal profession and i can say that had that judge damaged the ponies,or indeed your reputation, i.e if you came to sell it, you could well have taken action for slanderous comments.
Had you been a professional you could have been caused alot of harm.
I had a judge once say that our riding pony was the sharpest thing she had ever seen, he tripped on something in the ring, almost went down and unseated jockey, she said this as loud as possible.
A very well known judge, breeder of many hoy's ponies stood at the side of us could not believe what she had just heard as she saw the whole thing. He was a total gentleman of a pony and had never been naughty from the day we backed him to the day he left us. But my point is there was no need for this ladies behaviour, if she had anything to say she should say so to me in a quiet corner.
Anyhow, Messydesk you are right and no doubt, one day, it will happen.
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