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Post by sallyw on Jul 18, 2009 15:26:43 GMT
How long will it be before a judge is sued for slander when they open their mouth too loud in front of others? The judge today told my grandughter in the ring that her pony was "extremely naughty" when placing her below a pony which bucked and napped. Why you might ask - so I did! I was told in front of a number of other people that the pony "had its back up all the time" and was "threatening to buck". It was declared "not safe to put a child on". This pony very naturally carries itself and moves in a very light way of going (she would not crack an egg, a better informed judge said). She is not threatening anything. Its just her way of going. HOWEVER - the point of this is the judge should not have criticised the pony to the child in the ring (this is FR we are talking about) and should have never ever then made slanderous comments about the pony in public WHATEVER HER OPINION. The picture below of the so called unsafe pony says it all! ![]() - and yes you are right there is no saddle or bridle!http://i266.photobucket.com/albums/ii274/Fetherstonphoto/Image0004.jpg[/IMG] |
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Post by sallyw on Jul 18, 2009 15:29:05 GMT
Heres the pic I hope!  |
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Babieca
Junior Member
hobbies include dressing inappropriately and missing court-order AA meetings
Posts: 134
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Post by Babieca on Jul 18, 2009 15:32:25 GMT
Great pic! I'm afraid I dont take to heart what judges say-they come up with all manner of excuses for not placing/putting you down the line etc. You know you are taking home the best pony  |
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Post by sageandonion on Jul 18, 2009 16:37:44 GMT
Messydesk, I know only too well how passionate we are when our children or our ponies are critised by anyone, we come rushing to defend them and our blood boils.
However, if your pony looks to others like it is about to buck and a judge particularly points things out, you might need to calm down about it and think on what has been said. I do not think those comments are slanderous.
At this stage I think what I have said will make you even more cross, but I am afraid you should never ever put your child on a pony without a hat even if that pony had tack on. Most of us have had a safe beloved pony, I have one myself, but there is no way I would allow anyone (and I am an adult pony rider) to sit on that pony, lunge or load it, without a hat.
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Post by princessv on Jul 18, 2009 17:11:27 GMT
A judge should not need to justify their decisions. To be honest i would rather see a buck once than a pony with it's back up all the way round as this shows to me that the pony is not happy with what it is doing and if i rode a pony that was threatening to do something this would scare me more than a buck.
Plus napping is nothing. I'm sure if a bigger rider was on the pony it wouldn't have napped but this is FR for goodness sake- leave the poor child alone.
As for you pic- a bit silly considering pony is loose in field
It's pretty silly to let a child do whatyou have in the photo if you don;t mind me saying.
As for suing the judge- sure!!!!!! See how that goes!! I'm sure anyone trying to sue a judge for slander will have a great case to present to a court
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Post by JadeCannon on Jul 18, 2009 17:20:43 GMT
I am sorry - this is not in relation to this topic but for gods sake everyone - I am sure everyone has sat on their pony bareback in the garden / stable and yes - i know it is safer with a hat but I just wish we could leave this nanny state behind!!!
(Oh and I know I am going to get slated but for everyone who replies I would like you to confirm that you have NEVER sat on a horse without a hat)
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Post by princessv on Jul 18, 2009 17:33:52 GMT
I am sorry - this is not in relation to this topic but for gods sake everyone - I am sure everyone has sat on their pony bareback in the garden / stable and yes - i know it is safer with a hat but I just wish we could leave this nanny state behind!!! (Oh and I know I am going to get slated but for everyone who replies I would like you to confirm that you have NEVER sat on a horse without a hat) yes you're right i have but the only times without a hat when i was under 14 was when i hat at least a headcollar on. and under 10 when someone was next to pony. Apart fronm that i have have done what is being done in pic- but at 16/17 + when i was old enough to know better |
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Post by sallyw on Jul 18, 2009 17:37:13 GMT
Thank you Jade Cannon! In fact the picture was taken by my grandaughters friend and I had no idea at the time what was happening. They were supposed to be picking raspberries and I had just gone to the loo! She now knows that she only rides with supervision and with a hat. It just demonstrates that this pony is as quiet as they come - and of course she is a pony at the end of the day and anything might happen. The point of my post - and the point people are missing is that of course the judge is entitled to their opinion but what they are not entitled to do, especially when it is completely wrong, is to broadcast it to all and sundry. This IS slander. I never said I was going to sue for slander, I just pointed out that judges should be careful what they say in public.
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Post by piggywiggywoo on Jul 18, 2009 17:41:43 GMT
If you didn't want the judge to tell you what was wrong with the pony in public, why did you ask her in front of people? Surely the most professional thing to have done for all involved was to take her to one side and then ask, or wait until she was alone?
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Post by armada on Jul 18, 2009 17:55:12 GMT
I'm not sure you can slander an animal can you? Perhaps you did not agree with her comments, but just avoid her like the plague in future, I've had some right old tosh thrown at me over the years, and I just walk away, a bit green around the gills at times, but leave it, get the book out, put the name in with a little devil by it, and keep well clear. I must say though I dont agree with princessv about napping being 'nothing' it is something, and if it goes backwards into the line or just outright refuses to come out can cause untold chaos and although a stronger rider could perhaps deal with it, the class was a childrens first ridden class and shows unsuitability and a lack of honesty on the part of the pony. I have legs like clamps and tried a polo pony one day that out and out refused to leave the bottom of the ramp when I'd mounted, it napped for England. The lad said I'll get you a stick, 'too late' I said, 'its just backed into another pony, lashed out, we've lost the ball and my teams got a foul', totally unsuitable. Different scenario, same result. I will also on every occasion justify if asked, why I have placed someone where I have, how else are they expected to learn from it and improve? And quite frankly if I can give them an accurate critique, I actually sound like I should be stood in the middle of the ring, as competitors, people deserve to be given a reason for their placing if they ask. And yes Jade, I too have ridden without a hat and as a child done untold things round my ponies, including vaulting on them in the field when they have been grazing - but obviously I did it totally unsupervised.
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Post by sallyw on Jul 18, 2009 17:56:45 GMT
You could be right but she was constantly surrounded by people - and to be frank I could not possibly expect in my wildes dreams that she would be so very rude about the pony. "She not my type" would have done! I also think it is wrong to criticise a pony to a 9 year old child in any circumstances. I am not bothered if she likes my pony or not. I started this thread because I believe at some time some judge will be sued by someone they criticise in public and everyone should be aware of that. This thread was not especially to discuss the specific circumstances of our experieneces today. That is merely an illustration of the circumstances which might lead to a rider or owner sueing.
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Post by sageandonion on Jul 18, 2009 19:25:22 GMT
JadeC I can confirm I have never ridden without a hat and have not allowed my daughter to ride hatless either. Neither do I allow her to play chicken across the road.
Although we cannot wrap children in cotton wool I have, and will continue to try to keep her as safe as I can for as long as I can. If that means I live in a nanny state, then long may it last. Keeping and riding horses is a risk business, why invite brain damage?
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Post by bowditchblobs on Jul 18, 2009 19:37:25 GMT
Messy desk just take a deep breath next time smile and walk away, every one on here has probably had totaly weired and wonderful comments at some point. Just dont go under that judge again. Showing can be a total pain in the butt at times, at the end of the day we do ask for a strangers opinion on our ponies though, doesnt mean we will like it. Iv had some tactless comments over the years too!!! I took a friend and her daughter out once first time showers [only local] the judge was so rude the kid was distraught [and mum livid!!]
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Post by merryment on Jul 18, 2009 21:05:08 GMT
we where at a county show not so long ago,my daughter was brought in top and dropped to eighth.whilst standing in the line up the judge was standing in front of her and his father came up to him and asked what mark had he given this pony for it to be dropped to eighth(bearing in mind he was standing right the in front of my daughter and by now the ponies pulled in above her) he turned round quite casually and said i gave it 44,the father turned and said hush not so loud,too which the judge turned to face my daughter and said loudly well i will tell you you got 44.my daughter was shall i say gobsmacked about him giving out her mark whilst still in the ring.Surely this is what the mark sheets are for? A few of the children that stood above her turned and just looked astounded at the judge and one child remarked that was very rude of him.
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Post by poop on Jul 18, 2009 23:25:38 GMT
i agree Jade Cannon, this is the nanny state!
When i was a child i would regularly take off down the field armed with various ropes to play cowboys and indians on a pony who thought they were having a peacful graze. One thing you soon learnt was whether pony was going to let you sit there quite happily or drop its shoulder and have you slide off its neck. Friends and i spent many a happy day playing with ponies in meadows, was brought up believing that this made you a better rider. My mother even 'broke' a dairy cow in to ride as a child as her farmer father wouldn't buy her a pony!
We all take risks every day just by setting foot outside and frankly there is a much more dangerous world outside of ponies for kids to worry about these days, i know there will always be freak accidents but they are just that.
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Post by goodgollymissmolly on Jul 18, 2009 23:57:30 GMT
should have never ever then made slanderous comments about the pony in public WHATEVER HER OPINION. Not normally known for sticking up for judges, but your comment seems to imply that her opinion can only be voiced if it is agreement with what you think? Surely you slagging her off on here is also libellous??? Judges make comments for us to learn from, take it on the chin and forget about it. As for the photo, yes I rode for years without a hat, rode bareback in the fields and played with the ponies without supervision - I did have several accidents but now being an adult I realise it was stupid so would never let a child do it now. Not nannying them, just being sensible. |
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Post by eskvalleystud on Jul 19, 2009 7:56:34 GMT
Freak accidents can be avoided though!!! I wouldn't call falling off without a hat on a freak accident, its an accident that can be avoided - its not a nanny state, the interest is keeping children and adults falling and having a serious or fatal accident, I do not understand why anyone would not wear a hat, they are so easy to put on and wear afterall! it should be a habit for everyone, I do understand the view where we live in a dangerous world and if an accident is going to happen it will, you can take measures to safeguard yourself, such as looking both ways whilst crossing a road, we have this installed into us as young children, what is the difference with being careful whilst sitting on a horse or pony??!
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Post by eskvalleystud on Jul 19, 2009 8:02:39 GMT
I understand how upsetting it can be for a judge to make comments that you do not or know not to be true, however they are there to judge and give their opinion on the day, I just have always accepted where I get placed as the judge has every right to do their job, I would too have asked her to have a private word with her, so you can go aside from everyone to go over what she thought was the problem on the day, sometimes judges stay surrounded by people because having seen it happen it can be quite intimidating for a judge when an annoyed or angry competitor goes up to them, a friend got lynched at a show once after she had finished her class, it was not a nice sight to see as there was the competitor and her supporters surrounding my friend and the competitor was clearly not happy when they marched up to her
I too would have been upset but the judge can only judge on the day and does not know anything else about the pony, whether the pony is a complete saint or not, I would just try and put this behind you and move on, at the end of the day you are extremely happy with the pony being safe so thats all that matters really!
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Post by sallyw on Jul 19, 2009 8:35:14 GMT
Listen to what I am saying will you all!! I dont give a d**n what the judge said. I was pointing out that when judges make loud and patently untrue remarks to all and sundry they are risking the fact that in these litigatious times someone will sue them. Slander is when someone makes a statement which defames another person. I was pointing out that by saying what this judge said she was damaging my reputation by claiming (completely wrongly) that I had put my grandchild on an unsafe pony. I am not slandering her by repeating what she said. I am not making new defamatory remarks about anyone - and anything I did say in that vein on this site would be libel of course - not slander. This was my granduaghters local show where school friends and neighbours were there. She is really struggling with going off the lead rein in the ring and to be told that she has a very naughty pony will not do her confidence any good at all. The picture - which she knows will not be repeated - shows the confidence that she was getting in the pony at last - now damaged by someone telling her that the pony is naughty. Of course the judge is entitled to their opinion and I REALLY DO NOT CARE WHAT SHE THOUGHT!!! She must however not upset children and criticise their pony in public. Someone NOT ME!! will one day sue her.
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Post by helle on Jul 19, 2009 8:50:10 GMT
Sorry- shoot me down- but I am with messydesk on this one!It was a totally uncalled for comment to a 9 year old in a FR class. She would have been better off just not saying anything as most judges seem to do if they don't place you, and if she was really concerned she should have had a quite word with the owner or parent, NOT the child. A comment like that to MY daughter at the tender age of 9 would most llikely have resulted in her not wanting to ride the pony again! Not only that - but HOW confusing must it be to a child to be told that her pony was 'extremely naughty' if the pony neighter bucked or napped?  People are quick to jump on Simon Cowel for treating kids on tv as adults and being too 'nasty ' with his comments as they are 'only kids' - how is this situation any different? |
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Post by cheekychops on Jul 19, 2009 9:06:13 GMT
Messy desk - ~you are 100% correct. lead rein and first riders are children and should not be frightened by such comments it is irresponsible and non constructive. If a judge is so concerned about a childs safety they should ask the child to dismount and leave the ring. First ridden classes are meant to be a nurturing introduction to showing independantly and such dramatic egotistical comments are useless. Im dont agree this is a slanderous issue though, I do think its unprofessional under the circumstances.....problem is judging horses is unregulated so other that the society who do you complian to. Also, this business of having to put down money to complain................so basically the rich can, the rest of us cant...........WHAT IS THIS? ? It is 2009 for gods sake? I think its an infringment of your right to expect good standards............I might check with a solicitor. |
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Post by cheekychops on Jul 19, 2009 9:09:48 GMT
PS OPINIONS SHOULD BE JUSTIFIABLE BY EVIDENCE....EITHER OBSERVABLE BEHAVIOUR, MEASUREMENT AGAINST BREED STANDARD OR SOCIETY RULES. IF A JUDGE CANT MEASURE AND JUSTIFY DESICIONS AGAINST STANDARDS WE MAY AS WELL HAVE ANDY FROM LITTLE BRITAIN JUDGING......................................"I want that one!" Judges should 100% be able to give comments if so requested that are professional and constructive. What do you think we pay our money for? ? ive been riding for 35 years and ive sat on with no hat. Stop being such a pompous jobsworth ( i notice from the poll done that 85% have ridden without hats anyway) I loved the natural pic!!! |
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Post by herbert on Jul 19, 2009 20:30:42 GMT
Kids will be kids, I know what I was like when I was young (too many years ago!) We can't wrap them in cotton wool all the time.... and I bet very few of us would put a helmet on to ride a bike......
As for the judge at the show, I think she/he was unprofessional and judges should be careful how they handle questioning from a competitor. I always try to make encouraging remarks/suggestions, as well as being tactful and honest... and I would rather a competitor asked rather than going home disgruntled and feeling hard done by!
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Post by eskvalleystud on Jul 20, 2009 8:50:30 GMT
Messydesk, I have re-read this and being a mother of a little girl who loves her pony to bits no matter what, yes I do think it was uncalled for - I hope your grand daughter has forgotten all about it and continues to enjoy the pony - my daughter would be gutted if a bad word was said about her pony - and having re read this even if the pony's back was up I would not deem 'as being unsafe for a child' fit the pony did her whole show and didn't buck etc I would say the pony is pretty safe if she looked after the child all the way round
sorry i interpritated your initial post and now see where you are coming from the unsafe part was totally uncalled for, a pony bucking is by far more unsafe than one who doesn't no matter the way the pony carries herself, at the end of the day the pony looked after your grand daughter, I too see your point now, what if you had the pony up for sale and potential customer had come to view to then hear the judge say what she did, even though from watching the pony did nothing wrong!
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Post by piper on Jul 20, 2009 9:43:30 GMT
Sadly Judges aren't perfect human beings ( is there such a thing ) and make mistakes like the rest of us. Yes, the opinion would have been better expressed to an adult but at the end of the day if it ever gets to Judges being sued for expressing an opinion then that will be the end for all of us. Far better to take it on the chin and give that judge a wide berth in future. Agree with kirstenraw about the lovely natural picture.
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Post by gypsy1 on Jul 20, 2009 18:05:24 GMT
BLIMEY !!!!!!!!!!!
there was me thinking that when i entered a show ring i was seeking that judges opnion good or bad ..
didnt realise i would need to have my solictor , health and saftey advisor and witness's there too ...
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Post by eskvalleystud on Jul 20, 2009 18:11:25 GMT
but how can the judge state the pony is unsafe when it blatently (sp) wasn't??!
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Post by sallyw on Jul 21, 2009 12:50:41 GMT
Of course the pony is not and has nevr been unsafe - however the important point is the one you made eskvalleystud. If she had been for sale, for example and potential buyers had been there what would they have thought? Those sort of ridiculous comments can damage a pony's reputation and by association the reputation of the person producing it (I say this in a general way, I am not a professional producer). For someone elese other than me who might earn their living from producing/ selling/ whatever then those kind of comments could be very damaging.
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Post by sallyw on Jul 21, 2009 16:07:08 GMT
I have today had a full and unreserved apology from the Chairman of the show for the judges behaviour and comments. Maybe next time she will be more careful in what she says!
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Post by chardonnay on Jul 21, 2009 19:26:02 GMT
I am sorry - this is not in relation to this topic but for gods sake everyone - I am sure everyone has sat on their pony bareback in the garden / stable and yes - i know it is safer with a hat but I just wish we could leave this nanny state behind!!! (Oh and I know I am going to get slated but for everyone who replies I would like you to confirm that you have NEVER sat on a horse without a hat) off topic again, i know, but i think most of us can remember getting on our ponies bareback and riding them aroound in headcollars without a hat. wish we were less worried these days |
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People are quick to jump on Simon Cowel for treating kids on tv as adults and being too 'nasty ' with his comments as they are 'only kids' - how is this situation any different?
