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Post by Intrerested on Sept 23, 2009 10:03:57 GMT
Last night someone started a very reasonable thread which was taken off.
They asked if HOYS and Olympia were being set up for certain ponies to win and for the names of those responsible for calling ponies of this breed to be measured. Fair comment?
I agree that those responsible for selecting ponies for re-measurement should be open and willing to declare themselves. Showing needs to be transparent to avoid accusation of fixed results.
Maybe there should be a special body with non show ring stipendary stewards to investigate "Fixing" in showing as there is in racing and other sports?
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Milliesmum
H G Addict
COCKERP00S RULE!!!
Posts: 23,901
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Post by Milliesmum on Sept 23, 2009 10:10:54 GMT
The previous thread was removed as site rules were broken - i.e. the two posts on the thread were from the same person posing as two different people.
This thread will be monitored - if it stays within ALL the site rules it will be left to run.
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Post by agreed on Sept 23, 2009 10:13:36 GMT
I totally agree, i would hate to think there was someone "out there" trying to get at me or mine and i didn't know who they were. If these people are prepared to contact the JMB and name me or mine i would expect to pick up the phone and ask who this person was who was causing me to take time/money/emotion and be inconvenienced by taking a pony for remeasuring. I think there is a law now where we have freedom of knowledge of these things.
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Post by Guestless on Sept 23, 2009 10:14:20 GMT
Last night's thread was deleted because it broke the rules so please take more care with this one (we had a guest having a conversation with themself as if they were more than one person). I'm happy to leave this one as long as it doesn't go the same way
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Post by Mole Mole Too on Sept 23, 2009 20:54:17 GMT
Two of us used one computer so we used similar names.
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rover
Junior Member
Posts: 66
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Post by rover on Oct 1, 2009 22:47:58 GMT
Devils- advocate! As we all well know there are some rather large Connies out there! So to me it should not matter as to who has called for the re measuring. I'm beginning to think that the breed standard is now being ignored for the more substancial sized animals. Measure all thats my moto and see how many are the size of the breed standard to which showing rules should be governed
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Post by titch on Oct 1, 2009 23:07:45 GMT
Go Millfieds Sportsman!!! Definitely in height!!!
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Post by agree on Oct 1, 2009 23:16:35 GMT
My feelings on the matter are that if a pony is over height then yes it should not be in the class but to call it just after (and therefore because) it has qualified for a major final be it hoys, olympia or the rihs is just wrong and completly out of order. I also think that the person/people who are deciding who is being called to remeasure should be named especially if they themselves are competing in the classes as they wont be putting themselves foward giving a very unfair advantage!
To add another point to the thread is it not about time some english bred connies were pulled for remeasuring??
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Post by starrider nli on Oct 2, 2009 7:59:11 GMT
I think ponies (especially connies) heights are now being looked at and we are heading in the right direction.
I was at a local show recently in a mixed breed M&M class. i was on a 14.3 welsh d and the connie stood beside me towered over her. It didn't get placed that day and I was informed that it wasn't placed at the connemara show - what is worrying is that it has a JMB height certificate (annual) 146.5.
Height is something that needs to be governed strictly - bigger isn't always better
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rover
Junior Member
Posts: 66
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Post by rover on Oct 2, 2009 8:07:29 GMT
Agree, I know what point you are making and I do agree with your view but lets be honest about this, if an owner/ producer has a 15h + connie they really should be aware of that or their abilities as horse people would be laughable! Ponies that spend hours to be measured in taking shoes off, starving so topline goes, sticing pins in withers and the rest of those " measure in tricks" are the ponies really going to stay at that "fake " hight. No and the owners know that, so be it on there own heads when they get pulled forward to be measured
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Post by titch on Oct 2, 2009 8:15:46 GMT
That's why most get sold by producers when they have won a bit as they know next time they won't make height!!!
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Post by sunnyday on Oct 2, 2009 9:15:32 GMT
and that's also why people buy them - they think they have a good buy but in their heart of hearts they know the "new pony" could measure out and are willing to take the chance. This is Ok but don't then kick up a song and dance when they actually do get measured out.
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Post by boots & saddles on Oct 2, 2009 10:33:57 GMT
if a pony looks to big and someone complains it does not always mean someone is having a go,it may be they just want the class to be judged fairly within the rules,thats why we have rules isnt it so everyone has a fair chance. or maybe im missing the point. i would quite happily let people know that i complained if i thought a horse was too big for its class, but some dont have the money to make the complant in the first place,me included and who does for that matter. im not sure that people buy over height animals thinking there get away with it some dont know the rules and believe a life height means for life cause thats what i was lead to believe up until recently, whats the point in having a life height if it does not mean for life. another way off making money out of us already skint horse owners.
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Post by wornthetshirt on Oct 2, 2009 11:05:30 GMT
My feelings on the matter are that if a pony is over height then yes it should not be in the class but to call it just after (and therefore because) it has qualified for a major final be it hoys, olympia or the rihs is just wrong and completly out of order. I also think that the person/people who are deciding who is being called to remeasure should be named especially if they themselves are competing in the classes as they wont be putting themselves foward giving a very unfair advantage! To add another point to the thread is it not about time some english bred connies were pulled for remeasuring?? But for these Championship classes - animals which qualify the scheduled wording is:- "ponies must not exceed the height limits as stipulated by the relevant Breed Societies. Ponies that qualify for the Championship at HOYS 2009 must hold a valid JMB Full height or Annual height Certificate, a copy of which must be sent at the time of entry to HOYS". The same has applied to the NPS Olympia qualifiers for years - (and the RIHS WHP, which is also run under NPS rules). So, if they havent got a height certificate, they have to be measured. So, not everyone has been 'objected to' by some 'horrible person'. Under BSPS and BSHA rules, the animal has to have the certificate even before it is accepted in the annual showing register. What's the big deal? (sorry, pardon the pun) Oh, and a Life height certificate has been called a Full height certificate for yonks.
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Post by boots & saddles on Oct 2, 2009 15:24:55 GMT
it must be my age im never going to remember they call it full but it still means nothing at the end of the day,full or life if your ponies too big there onto you and so they should be. nothing worse than a cheat.
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Post by robertparkerjones on Oct 2, 2009 16:42:29 GMT
Several years ago we had a novice small hack called Uptown Girl. She came out and won a lot, she had been measured in the February (5 yrs old) and was well under 15 hands. By the Royal Welsh of the same year she looked big in the class so we popped the stick on her to discover she was just under 15.2. We stopped showing her and in the Autumn she was sold as a large hack/small riding horse. She came out with Stella Harries as a small riding horse and was extremely successful. There was no cheating she was a small hack at the start of the season..... we made the decision to stop showing her because she didn't look right in the class. I've had ponies objected to in the middle of the season and got them measured. When relaxed the height is taken at the highest point of the withers. Fat and condition are not a contributing factors to animals being overheight. Heights of horses can be deceptive and I do not take it into consideration as I feel someone with greater experience has done this for me when a height certificate was issued!!!!
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Post by foxylady on Oct 2, 2009 17:37:32 GMT
I do not think everyone sets out to cheat , alot of people would struggle to exactly guess the height of ponies /horses , we had very successful sp that had a huge front and always looked bigger than others in the class ( partly because he was always looking out for the photographer !!! ) but he was an easy measure at 136.8, if you looked at them from behind he smaller than alot of them . Just goes to show that looks can be deceptive.
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Post by unbelievable on Oct 2, 2009 20:52:49 GMT
Agree, I know what point you are making and I do agree with your view but lets be honest about this, if an owner/ producer has a 15h + connie they really should be aware of that or their abilities as horse people would be laughable! Ponies that spend hours to be measured in taking shoes off, starving so topline goes, sticing pins in withers and the rest of those " measure in tricks" are the ponies really going to stay at that "fake " hight. No and the owners know that, so be it on there own heads when they get pulled forward to be measured omg do people really stupe that low to get there pony measured how can an animal lover stick pins in there ponies and starve them just to get the desired height its appalling
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Post by cassie30 on Oct 2, 2009 21:00:32 GMT
Because they are not an animal lover, one of those wouldn't dream of doing such a horrific thing! and yes it does really happen.
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Post by Rosie Fan on Oct 2, 2009 21:25:54 GMT
Years ago we had a small riding horse who looked big becuase he had elevated movement and really carried himself. Everywhere we took him people commented which wasn't pleasant. However he measured a snitch below 15.2hh [as it was then] with his shoes on.
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ada
Full Member
Posts: 489
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Post by ada on Oct 2, 2009 22:42:07 GMT
I have a 5yr old connie he measures 146 on the stick in a BSPS nf&c class he looked about 13.2 next to the other connies, how big does that make them? On a different track a few years ago i had a connie/tb cross, bought him as a 2yr old, he was 14.2, he grew until he was 7 making 16h, yet have had other horses as 2yr olds that hardly grew at all.
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Post by agree on Oct 3, 2009 8:54:34 GMT
My feelings on the matter are that if a pony is over height then yes it should not be in the class but to call it just after (and therefore because) it has qualified for a major final be it hoys, olympia or the rihs is just wrong and completly out of order. I also think that the person/people who are deciding who is being called to remeasure should be named especially if they themselves are competing in the classes as they wont be putting themselves foward giving a very unfair advantage! To add another point to the thread is it not about time some english bred connies were pulled for remeasuring?? But for these Championship classes - animals which qualify the scheduled wording is:- "ponies must not exceed the height limits as stipulated by the relevant Breed Societies. Ponies that qualify for the Championship at HOYS 2009 must hold a valid JMB Full height or Annual height Certificate, a copy of which must be sent at the time of entry to HOYS". The same has applied to the NPS Olympia qualifiers for years - (and the RIHS WHP, which is also run under NPS rules). So, if they havent got a height certificate, they have to be measured. So, not everyone has been 'objected to' by some 'horrible person'. I agree with what you are saying but the point I am making is that the if animal was over height before it qualified and the relevant societys would be more than likely aware of this, why let people have the joy excitment (not to mention cost) of qualifying only to take it away from them, why not pull them as soon as you become aware that the pony is suspected of being over height?? Its not the principle of re measuring I am disagreeing with but the way in which it is undertaken and used. And in response to your last line I dont know where you think I even implicated a comment to that end. Also it only came into force this year that m&m whp need a jmb height cert to compete at the rihs.
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Post by sageandonion on Oct 3, 2009 9:59:05 GMT
I think the original post was calling for people to be named publicly when they object. From what I see, you will have very few objections were that to be the case. I have seen the very nasty things that have been said about people objecting and I think the majority of people would not want to be the brunt of that and what seem to be to be very unsavory types.
Calling for names to be made public is rather like "offering outside in a pub for a brawl", it is frankly rather distasteful.
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rover
Junior Member
Posts: 66
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Post by rover on Oct 3, 2009 19:58:01 GMT
Several years ago we had a novice small hack called Uptown Girl. She came out and won a lot, she had been measured in the February (5 yrs old) and was well under 15 hands. By the Royal Welsh of the same year she looked big in the class so we popped the stick on her to discover she was just under 15.2. We stopped showing her and in the Autumn she was sold as a large hack/small riding horse. She came out with Stella Harries as a small riding horse and was extremely successful. There was no cheating she was a small hack at the start of the season..... we made the decision to stop showing her because she didn't look right in the class. I've had ponies objected to in the middle of the season and got them measured. When relaxed the height is taken at the highest point of the withers. Fat and condition are not a contributing factors to animals being overheight. Heights of horses can be deceptive and I do not take it into consideration as I feel someone with greater experience has done this for me when a height certificate was issued!!!! Wasent condition a reason for a well know producers cob being over height? This was quoted from said producer in Horse and Hound. My horses do change shape and vary in heigh to a small degree through out the year depending on condition. So I will agree to disagreed however I will say your actions to pull the horse from the class were honerable and more should be as honest as you!
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rover
Junior Member
Posts: 66
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Post by rover on Oct 4, 2009 9:11:17 GMT
Agree, I know what point you are making and I do agree with your view but lets be honest about this, if an owner/ producer has a 15h + connie they really should be aware of that or their abilities as horse people would be laughable! Ponies that spend hours to be measured in taking shoes off, starving so topline goes, sticing pins in withers and the rest of those " measure in tricks" are the ponies really going to stay at that "fake " hight. No and the owners know that, so be it on there own heads when they get pulled forward to be measured omg do people really stupe that low to get there pony measured how can an animal lover stick pins in there ponies and starve them just to get the desired height its appalling Can I clarify that I have never done this. If it measures out then it measures out in my eyes!
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Post by jackiet on Oct 5, 2009 14:18:11 GMT
Does anyone think that there will be a height restriction imposed on Welsh Sec D's in the future ?
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sarahp
Happy to help
Posts: 9,510
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Post by sarahp on Oct 5, 2009 14:38:35 GMT
That's a matter for the breed society!
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halfpass
Happy to help....a lot
Return of the Dame
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Post by halfpass on Oct 5, 2009 14:52:32 GMT
Does anyone think that there will be a height restriction imposed on Welsh Sec D's in the future ? Can't see why, there is no upper hight limit on the breed standard as there is on the Connemara
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rover
Junior Member
Posts: 66
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Post by rover on Oct 5, 2009 17:24:31 GMT
I think I remember that there used to be many years ago and I think it was 14.2? But there were so many over height that they took off the resitriction? Can anyone clarify would be interesting to know! I still cant get my head around "upgrading" a C to a D! ;D
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Post by cassie30 on Oct 5, 2009 17:32:55 GMT
or an A to a B Rover?? just not right!!
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