What colour am i likely to get

[em]

I have a black welsh sec A, what colour foal am i likely to get if i put her to a black, or to a palamino. Thanks

[fourwhites]

hi em , i dont think it matters how many books you read about colour genetics you can still be surprised . black is surposed to be a dominent gene and black ,bay and grey are all black based ,so by rights you should get black or bay by putting her to a black stallion. She could have any number of colours by a palomino ,including pally ,dun because of the dilute gene but it allso depends on the ponies back breeding,we have had pally from a bay mare by a pally and allso dun from a bay mare by a pally.i hope this doesnt confuse to much ,but in my experience especially with the welshies they l surprise you.

[Illeybrook]

If your mare is black and not just a dark bay/brown and you put her to a black stallion then your possible outcome is.........

93.75% - Black
6.25% - Chestnut

If you put a black to a palomino then your outcome will be..........
16.67% - Smoky Black
16.67% - Buckskin
16.67% - Black
16.67% - Bay
16.67% - Palomino
16.67% - Chestnut

If you are looking to breed colour and put her to a cremello you will get....
33.34% - Smoky Black
33.34% - Buckskin
33.33% - Palomino

[rja]

Hi another question! I have a liver chestnut mare in foal to a dark bay stallion, what colour do you think she may have, (no it doesnt matter what colour as long as its ok but just interested)ps she is a welshie too!!!!

[em]

Hi guys thanks for all your help.

[sarahp]

rja - most likely bay or chestnut but you could just get a black.

[pattendown]

i had a colt from just this mix and he was buckskin

[heathers]

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Equine_coat_color_genetics

www.ultimatehorsesite.com/colors/index.html

www.animalgenetics.us/CCalculator1.asp

[sarahp]

Did you mean from dark bay x chestnut pattendown, which was the one I was answering? If so that would be very odd because neither parent carries a dilute gene! Or the original question, which could well produce a buckskin.

[hazel]

Sorry to be thick but what is a "smoky Black"?

[kayjayem]

Smokey black is a black which carries a dilute gene so can produce palomino and buckskin. Sometimes they look a dark chocolatey bay or liver chestnut

[pattendown]

oops sorry no black x pally produced a buckskin ,,fairstoke sundance

[pattendown]

i have foals from a dark bay mare or thats wot it says on her passport i think shes smokey black as she has gold points ,to chestnut she has had bay and one looked a very dark buckskin

[karynk]

First what colour were your mares parents? If one was chestnut then you know she carries chestnut. If there is no chestnut for several generations in her pedigree it could well be that she will be homozygous for black base colour and will not herself produce a chestnut no matter what you breed her to.

It all depends on this to narrow down what you will get, but two blacks carrying chestnut still gives you a 25% chance of producing a chestnut.

Then if you add in the single cream gene from a palomino, then it is 50/50 if you get this as well. Cream has little effect on black hairs so if you get a black it will be very hard to see any effect. If you get a bay with cream you will get a yellow buckskin, a brown a dark buckskin and a chestnut a palomino.

[karynk]

Jan 31, 2010 20:17:20 GMT rja said:

Hi another question! I have a liver chestnut mare in foal to a dark bay stallion, what colour do you think she may have, (no it doesnt matter what colour as long as its ok but just interested)ps she is a welshie too!!!!

What colour are the stallions parents? Has he ever thrown a chestnut? how many foals does he have on the ground? Also what colour and shade were the mares parents?

The answers to these questions will narrow it down a bit. Research into coat shade inheritance is very sketchy at the moment and many previous theory's have recently been proven wrong by colour test results, so coat shade is difficult! I suspect that there will be a whole series of factors that combine to produce coat shades.

[hazel]

Thanks for explaining Smokey Black Kayjayem.

[smokeycott]

i have a black mare (although chestnut bred)used a buckskin stallion and ive got a pally foal.

[pattendown]

my brother had a black mare and she was a true black covered with a chestnut stallion and had a liver chestnut foal

[kayjayem]

Feb 4, 2010 21:41:31 GMT pattendown said:

i have foals from a dark bay mare or thats wot it says on her passport i think shes smokey black as she has gold points ,to chestnut she has had bay and one looked a very dark buckskin

If you really want to know what she is you could have a dna test - it's easy and cheap, just need a few hairs and about £20(ish from what I remember)

[karynk]

Useful Tip in some cases there is no need to test a tiny bit of research into progeny and back pedigree research will save you the money.

All chestnuts are ee on their base colour genes.

Any sex black, Brown or bay with a chestnut parent will have an E series genetic profile of E e, black base coat carrying chestnut.

Any black, brown or bay stallion who has sired a lot of foals and never produced a chestnut especially to chestnut mares will be E E - homozygous for black base.

Any chestnut, bay brown or very dark almost black stallion that has not produced a true black to a number of black mares is likely to be homozygous on it's A series (for bay or brown).

Any chestnut with a true black parent will have a A series profile with at least one a (no Agouti so black base coat) and will be able to produce a black to the right mating.

Any Grey with only one grey parent will be heterozygous for grey (only has one grey gene). Any grey stallion who has not produced a chestnut especially from chestnut mares from a sizeable foal crop will be EE, homozygous black base.

If a grey or something like an extended white appaloosa is a chestnut then it will not have sired a black, bay or brown from a chestnut mare, again it will need to have a fair few foals from chestnut mares on the ground to be sure.

Mares do not usually produce enough progeny in their life to say for sure if they are free from or have a gene, so it the pedigree research or testing with them.

[em]

Thanks so much for all this info , much appreciated.

[kayjayem]

Karynk out of interest a black stallion(looks smokey black to me and is by a palomino) crossed with a chestnut roan mare(palomino sire x ch roan dam) produced a palomino can I assume that he is definately smokey? I'm pretty sure he looks it but was going to have him dna'd just to confirm.

[sarahp]

If definitely a chestnut roan mare (so no dilute gene there) the foal would have to have inherited its dilute gene from the sire, who must therefore be a smokey black. They can vary to look at - I've seen some that appear to be normal blacks and others (I have one) who is chocolate brown all over, definitely not actually black!

[karynk]

Second that if the mare was chestnut, with chestnut or anything less than cream mane and tail, then he's a smoky black.

I am thinking that the very dark buckskins that are often called mouse duns, are black and tans with a cream gene and that a bay would give you the golden buckskin.

So 1x cream turns the red coat of a bay to yellow but has little effect on the black hairs, which is why you get the "hidden" dark brown and black buckskins, that look like standard brown or blacks, until suddenly something yellow or gold pops out of the blue!

I am hoping to do some testing in the USA soon on the A series test, which differentiates between bays and Black and Tans. I have been offered offered a discount for testing, but I need to work it out with the chap how we are going to go about it. When I know for sure I will post here, but I wanted to know where back and tan stops and bay starts visually and prove my theory on the yellow buckskins as well!

[kayjayem]

Thanks for that SarahP & Karynk, it's as I thought then. He def looks smokey and the mare was def chestnut roan but I wasn't sure if the roan could somehow mask the dilute(if that makes sense!) It's nice you've both confirmed it, saved me a few quid as well!!! I've got a palomino and a buckskin in foal to him and I know I have a 1/4 of a double dilute - I don't mind having 1 but I hope I don't get 2!

[sarahp]

You're welcome, glad to be of help. Must admit I try to avoid the possibility of breeding double dilutes, but I have put palomino stallion on a buckskin mare twice - and got a chestnut and a bay!

[kayjayem]

I've ordered a palomino and a buckskin and a pig poo proof brolly for when they fly past!!

[karynk]

Will keep my fingers crossed for you but if it's anything like me and bl**dy chestnut fillys, (always seem to get one no matter what the odds) be prepared!

[kayjayem]

Oh I'm prepared don't worry! I'm rather clever at breeding chestnut colts,4/6 last year 3 by a pally 1 by a ch tobiano!

[sjc]

Don't mean to hi jack a thread, but does anyone no the chances of getting a chestnut roan foal if mum is chestnut roan and dad was either a pally or grey?

Thankyou