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Post by guestandasmall bit on May 31, 2010 18:24:42 GMT
what does anyone think of the proposed new pp ruling of not being on a producers yard from oct 1st the previous year! so the poor people who have to wait for their new pony should it be on a producers for hoys or like a lot pf people who cannot afford to have their ponies produced all year but would like their ponies /jockeys given the best opportunity at hoys so save all year and are at a yard for 4weeks prior to hoys, the new owners will then be ineligible for pp the following season.
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Post by tuppence on May 31, 2010 18:48:54 GMT
what does anyone think of the proposed new pp ruling of not being on a producers yard from oct 1st the previous year! so the poor people who have to wait for their new pony should it be on a producers for hoys or like a lot pf people who cannot afford to have their ponies produced all year but would like their ponies /jockeys given the best opportunity at hoys so save all year and are at a yard for 4weeks prior to hoys, the new owners will then be ineligible for pp the following season. I think this is a very good change. It prevents people having their ponies in production for HOYS and then taking them home to do PP the following year. If the pony is genuinely good enough, it will do OK as a home produced; even in the open classes. This new rule only blocks pro produced ponies from PP for one year.
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kayjayem
Happy to help....a lot
Posts: 10,046
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Post by kayjayem on May 31, 2010 22:36:13 GMT
So if you are good enough to qual HOYS yourself take the credit and go there yourself it is far more rewarding! If you think you need the aid of a pro then don't expect to go back to the home produced ranks who have gone it alone throughout.
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Post by ernie on May 31, 2010 22:40:56 GMT
So what about the home produced people who buy a pony that has been in a producers yard and this is only picked up after HOYS?? It is an absolutely absurd rule!!
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sg
Full Member
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Post by sg on May 31, 2010 22:45:22 GMT
I think change of ownership should be different - but totally agree with the change. IMO once you go to a producer you don't go back - maybe to amateurs but not to home produced. What annoys me about the rules is the owner/ rider related rule - I ride a pony bred by his owner, who lives out in her fields but I do all the riding/ show prep/ care; yet we can't do HP...But I could have my own pony at home with a groom and it's be OK. Why does the jockey have to be a relative if you both have amateur/ hp status?!
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Post by ernie on May 31, 2010 22:51:18 GMT
No I don't think it makes any difference if there has been a change in ownership or not. They bring in so many rules that actually affect the honest home produced families and amateurs but yet does not 'disqualify' the ones who do not compete in the spirit intended.
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Post by ponymadmum on Jun 1, 2010 8:43:33 GMT
Sorry but I am wholly home produced and if I bought a horse off a producers yard I would have no problem in not doing PP classes according to the rules - I think a horse/pony should have been off a producers yard for a whole 12 months before being eligible for PP classes-sorry just my personal opinion but I would feel sooooo guilty doing these classes after buying an animal that had been produced. (We have been in this position).
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Post by ernie on Jun 1, 2010 9:19:41 GMT
Yes we are totally home produced too. However, I am quite intrigued by your response - are you saying that you do such a worse job than the producers that a pony would need a whole year so that it can 'forget' what it was taught in the yard or not look as good. I don't think so. I am sorry but I think you need to have a bit more faith in yourself and your ability to produce ponies from home. I am not saying I agree with ponies coming straight off a yard then competing but then why not 1st November or 1st December after HOYS. I think it would seriously affect the class sizes of the Pretty Polly classes which are already poor (apart from the MH SP classes which seem to be the best atttended) if you were to bring in this new rule - but is that what the BSPS are secretly trying to do - get rid of them?
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Post by foxylady on Jun 1, 2010 9:33:57 GMT
I think you will find bsps are just falling into line with other societies and if you have the ability to qualify for Hoys why would you want to send it to a producer for the 4 wks prior unless of course you felt you needed the producer to stand behind it . I would have thought you could upset the pony alot more by sending him off to a strange yard ,personally I think you are either HP or your not and I think in fairness PP classes should be just that for the HP .
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Post by ernie on Jun 1, 2010 10:04:59 GMT
Yes I do agree with your point on sending ponies to a producers yard for a few weeks but what I am against is that you could purchase a pony that you pick up after HOYS that has been with a producer that year (or for a few years for that matter) and despite producing it from home from mid October to mid March when the qualifiers start you will still be deemed ineligible for home produced classes. There are so many producers about now it is difficult to purchase ponies that are not on a producers yard. Surley if you are a home produced it should not matter who you have purchased the pony from.
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Post by network on Jun 1, 2010 10:23:52 GMT
Yes I do agree with your point on sending ponies to a producers yard for a few weeks but what I am against is that you could purchase a pony that you pick up after HOYS that has been with a producer that year (or for a few years for that matter) and despite producing it from home from mid October to mid March when the qualifiers start you will still be deemed ineligible for home produced classes. There are so many producers about now it is difficult to purchase ponies that are not on a producers yard. Surley if you are a home produced it should not matter who you have purchased the pony from. I dont understand why you want to enter a home produced class if the pony has been produces
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Post by Guestless on Jun 1, 2010 11:39:19 GMT
If a pony has been produced in the past, then it seems to me that it SHOULD be a pony that is fairly easy to produce and therefore new owners wouldn't perhaps have the same struggles that others who have bought a raw pony will have to go through.
New rule therefore seems logical to me.
[Please note I did say "should" as I know from personal experience that not all ponies bought from producers are easy to do]
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Post by ernie on Jun 1, 2010 11:45:07 GMT
I dont understand why you want to enter a home produced class if the pony has been produces Sorry but I think you must be missing my point because I am confused by your response. We are looking for a new pony this year for next year because my daughter moves up a height section and if one comes up for sale at the end of the year but it has been produced for the past few years are you saying that if we purchased it then we shouldn't want to or be allowed to compete in home produced classes even though we are without doubt a home produced family? Does that make us not home produced because the horse has been purchased from a producer?
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Post by ponymadmum on Jun 1, 2010 11:59:45 GMT
Ernie I think it is a matter of choice. I have faith in our ability to produce our own ponies and we have done very well at County level/RIHS in the past-two of our ponies were produced prior to our purchasing them-both did better in open classes than any home produced classes-not sure why!!!!! We have also had very novice ponies that I have actually had more enjoyment out of than the more set up ponies and we have done equally as well with these-we have done home produced with these ponies as they have been wholly home produced for their entire ridden careers-again we have always done better in open classes. Think it is up to everyone to make their own minds up as to whether they want to do home produced. We have a lovely horse now but not showing at the moment-he will be eligible for PP and open and we may well do both with him-he is an ex HOYS horse we have had him for nearly 2 years now. Good luck in PP.
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Post by Guestless on Jun 1, 2010 12:37:18 GMT
are you saying that if we purchased it then we shouldn't want to or be allowed to compete in home produced classes even though we are without doubt a home produced family? Does that make us not home produced because the horse has been purchased from a producer? I know you weren't asking me, but IMO you are still home produced in those circumstances, but the pony won't have always been home produced which makes the difference for the reasons I have already mentioned.
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Post by sageandonion on Jun 1, 2010 13:07:43 GMT
I think it is a more than reasonable rule, I'd be tougher. You cannot try for Search for a Star for five years I think if that horse has been to HOYS, even if it went as a four year old and in a different class.
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Post by network on Jun 1, 2010 13:14:05 GMT
I dont understand why you want to enter a home produced class if the pony has been produces Sorry but I think you must be missing my point because I am confused by your response. We are looking for a new pony this year for next year because my daughter moves up a height section and if one comes up for sale at the end of the year but it has been produced for the past few years are you saying that if we purchased it then we shouldn't want to or be allowed to compete in home produced classes even though we are without doubt a home produced family? Does that make us not home produced because the horse has been purchased from a producer? You may be a home produced family but you are buying a pony that is produced and therefore not home produced, to me a true home producer is one that produces their pony from start to finish, not buy a produced one and then palm it off as home produced, not saying that is what you are doing before everyone jumps on me
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Post by sageandonion on Jun 1, 2010 13:18:00 GMT
Not saying it applies to the original poster, but I agree completely with desktop.
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Post by ernie on Jun 1, 2010 15:29:03 GMT
So let me get this right - in order to compete in a home produced class the pony must not have been in a producers yard - ever! You make it sound as though we go out and buy produced ponies that are 'set up' and then compete as home produced but we are not like that. All my point is was that the best pony for our daughter - temperament etc might have come from a producers yard but that doen't mean we are not home produced. Some ponies are produced due to the fact that the children's parents have no idea about showing etc. not because they are nut cases and need a 'producer' to get them in the ring!! I obviously am the only one who feels this way but I do think that this will be the sad demise of these classes.
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Post by Guestless on Jun 1, 2010 15:32:29 GMT
Some ponies are produced due to the fact that the children's parents have no idea about showing etc. not because they are nut cases and need a 'producer' to get them in the ring!! Agreed but, if produced well, then it should make the next owner's job easier which therefore IMO stops the pony being 100% home produced....if the new rule gives a time limit of 1 year then that's fine by me, but I would also be fine with a longer time limit being imposed.
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Post by sageandonion on Jun 1, 2010 15:41:09 GMT
Surely there are plenty of other classes you can do so not as if you can't do anything at all. No need to get upset about it. I am sure if the pony has been to HOYS with a producer you will be very capable of competing against the pony's peer group of produced ponies yourself and it will be fairer for those whose ponies have not been with a producer recently. Who wants to win a rossette if they are not on a level playing field.
Shall we remember we are discussing enjoyment and rossettes.
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Post by ernie on Jun 1, 2010 15:43:03 GMT
I can see your point but like I said earlier do we home produced families really do such a bad job at getting our ponies into the ring. Remember these producers e.g katy carter, emmersons, hollings all started as home produced and yes are excellent at what they do but that is their job. It is not mine I work full time and our results at HOYS and RIHS show that we don't do a bad job! So why would we need a wait a year or longer - does the pony lose so much of it's education going from a producer to a home produced family that it then becomes hard work?
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Post by ernie on Jun 1, 2010 15:49:55 GMT
Surely there are plenty of other classes you can do so not as if you can't do anything at all. No need to get upset about it. I am sure if the pony has been to HOYS with a producer you will be very capable of competing against the pony's peer group of produced ponies yourself and it will be fairer for those whose ponies have not been with a producer recently. Who wants to win a rossette if they are not on a level playing field. Shall we remember we are discussing enjoyment and rossettes. I'm sorry sage and onion I am not getting upset and I am certainly not after chasing a rossette as I have seen many of those people - especially in the lead rein PP I am just looking at this from what I thought was a practical point of view but I am obviously in the minority. At the end of the day I have never broken any BSPS rules and never would but I think that you are more aware of rule changes when they actually affect you directly and as I say as we are looking for a new pony this year it now narrows down the field of ponies available to us if we still wish to support the Pretty Polly classes as they do need supporting! I think by reading everyone's responses gain that actually it should become home produced 'ponies' not the family producing a pony from home - The pony should carry the home produced eligibilty not the family.
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Post by IMO on Jun 1, 2010 16:14:52 GMT
This rule change has is pro's & cons.... The good: It totally blocks these people that run a pony as 'home produced' right up until the day after the pretty polly classes at RIHS & then send it to a producer to qualify for HOYS. We all know how hard it is for the true home producers to get a HOYS ticket - it becomes a whole different ball game qualifying for HOYS without a producer or a major sponsor behind you, seemingly regardless of the calibre of the pony. So the pony competes as a produced pony for the rest of the season, goes home after HOYS and lo & behold comes out as a home produced pony the following January. Time these sort of people chose what they wanted as they are ruining it for the rest of us.... The bad: ernie's situation - buying a 'produced' pony knocks you out of the pretty polly classes for a whole season; not sure what the solution is there, more than likely it's just tough & you know it when you choose the pony & we have to pay that price due to all the above b'stards that want to push the PP rules to the limit?
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Post by ernie on Jun 1, 2010 16:23:43 GMT
This rule change has is pro's & cons.... The good: It totally blocks these people that run a pony as 'home produced' right up until the day after the pretty polly classes at RIHS & then send it to a producer to qualify for HOYS. We all know how hard it is for the true home producers to get a HOYS ticket - it becomes a whole different ball game qualifying for HOYS without a producer or a major sponsor behind you, seemingly regardless of the calibre of the pony. So the pony competes as a produced pony for the rest of the season, goes home after HOYS and lo & behold comes out as a home produced pony the following January. Time these sort of people chose what they wanted as they are ruining it for the rest of us.... The bad: ernie's situation - buying a 'produced' pony knocks you out of the pretty polly classes for a whole season; not sure what the solution is there, more than likely it's just tough & you know it when you choose the pony & we have to pay that price due to all the above b'stards that want to push the PP rules to the limit? Thankyou IMO. I have said before that by bringing in more rules like this they are affecting the true home producers and not actually targetting those who are bending the rules. So could the rule have a sub clause that it is the 1st October unless there is a change in ownership and rider then 1st January.
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kayjayem
Happy to help....a lot
Posts: 10,046
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Post by kayjayem on Jun 1, 2010 16:30:19 GMT
Or better still if you could find a pony which has been home produced before and qualified for HOYS by an amateur. Then you know that it qualified because it's good enough, not just because of whos yard it was on in case there was any doubt that it had been sent to a pro just to "get a ticket".
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Post by sageandonion on Jun 1, 2010 17:01:33 GMT
As people are doing what IMO guest has pointed out, that is just too dreadful. I am afraid ernie that you are a casualty of a rule designed to stop this really not very sporting behaviour.
I think we have to be honest and admit that a pony that has been with a Producer, as a general rule, is pretty much in clockwork mode for quite some time to come. I know, I have purchased produced ponies. I have found, during training for another discipline, it is quite difficult to get them to actually listen to the rider, rather than going in a show winning, you don't even have to press the buttons mode.
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Post by hollycane on Jun 1, 2010 18:19:02 GMT
I fail to see why the introduction of this rule by the BSPS causes any issue as surely one season out of PP isn't the end of the world and also by the amount of back biting and beeching that goes on ringside about anything that's come out of a producer's yard regardless of whether it is successful or not. People are so quick to jump on any poor person that might have beaten them (therefore having received an "unfair" leg up from the producer) ernie if the right animal for you is in a producers yard and you really want to do PP next season, pay the money and take it out of the yard. If not there are lots of other classes to be done, FCS even ones you might have fun at.
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Post by rubyshoes1 on Jun 1, 2010 18:34:41 GMT
Last year, in april we bought a novice from a professional, it had been broken by them but never taken to any show, we knew when we bought it that we could'nt do hp, and as he was a bit rude this year we sent him back for a couple of weeks, so yet again we can't do hp. I agree with hollycane, it is'nt the end of the world! Several years ago we bought a pony from a producer and took her home from peterborough & although we were eligable for pp with the bsps we could not do hp with the cherif as I think their rule is different.
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Post by ernie on Jun 1, 2010 20:52:35 GMT
I'm not saying it is the end of the world I am merely pointing out that the classes are at times not that well supported anyway and by bringing in this new rule the BSPS are once again restricting the number of competitors. It is just that I would hate to see these classes disappear due to lack of support. I can appreciate not showing a pony in home produced classes the week after it has been in a yard if it came home mid season but surely there is very liitle difference made to a pony between the 1st October and 1st November that would enable ponies to be shown at HOYS with their current owners and then picked up by the new owner.
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