|
Post by sentmine on Dec 22, 2006 16:24:00 GMT
sent mine in and ticked boxes B and C1. Let us now pray they actually take any notice of the ballot.
|
|
|
Post by Def not on Dec 22, 2006 18:57:43 GMT
I for one will not be ticking C1, having 2 judges would be one of the worst things to do an olympia qualifier, Look at HOYS qualifiers!
You will always have one judge trying to influence the marks, and by having judges it does not make it any farier at all.
Just a thought, having spoken to people who organise shows they say what a terrible job they have finding olympia judges as there are so few of them about, imagine how bad it would be having 2 in a class................def a step backwards.
I also think, because Olympia really is the be all and end all for most M&M showing peoples, its nice for a judge to sit back and say I put that horse through, I should imagine its a highlight for a judge to judge an olympia qualifier as well, I am sure they wouldnt want to share that or settle on a comprmise through a marks system.
|
|
|
Post by Mr B on Dec 22, 2006 19:17:41 GMT
Whilst I can appreciate where Def not is coming from and agree that it is an honour to judge an Olympia qualifier, I dont agree that is always a compromise where there are two judges. I find that in the majority of cases it is a common agreement. I believe that judges are accountable and the mark system helps this. Personally I would like to see marks for both conformation and type(in the in hand phase) and marks for both technical performance and way of going according to breed type(in the ridden part)! Is this feasible? Would you have to have two judges? Is this why I enjoy working hunter judging because it focusses the mind on different aspects?
Best wishes for Christmas and have a Happy New Year.
|
|
|
Post by anna on Dec 22, 2006 19:31:23 GMT
Are you Mr Br or Mr Bo.
|
|
|
Post by mr B on Dec 22, 2006 19:37:59 GMT
Does it matter?
|
|
|
Post by anna on Dec 22, 2006 20:02:13 GMT
Not really any sensible comment is appreciated, but our punters will listen to Mr Bo as he seems very highly respected on this site.
|
|
|
Post by Mr Bo on Dec 22, 2006 20:28:24 GMT
Fair enough it is Mr Bo. I have no wish to remain anonymous and it was punters on this site who referred to me in this way initially.
I believe in free and open discussion and believe it can only benefit matters in the long run.
I know there have been problems with the mark system but at least my proposals would allow people to see precisely what a judge liked or disliked about their pony. If it was performance, well there is hope. If it was type, they can decide whether to show under that judge again.
These views are very personal and no doubt will not suit many.
Regards.
Peter Boustead
|
|
|
Post by anna on Dec 22, 2006 20:33:01 GMT
Welcome Mr Bo I think that names suits you.
|
|
|
Post by good idea on Dec 22, 2006 21:06:06 GMT
I think this is a very sensible idea. Not every one agrees what is correct for a particular breed, some because they may prefer a particular type within a breed standard others because although they think they know about breed type for all breeds maybe their knowledge is a little lacking. Peters suggestion would enable competitors to clarify whether there was a problem in understanding correct type or whether the pony/rider were having an off day. If the jockey is grown up enough he/she should be able to identify this himself. This system could help to educate everybody
|
|
judge
Junior Member
Posts: 154
|
Post by judge on Dec 22, 2006 21:07:48 GMT
Sorry but I disagree the marks lead to corruption as has been proved this year. The marks take no notice of the go round or the final walk round. Many a class has been won or lost on the final walk round. God knows whats going to come out of this silly ballot, Olympia was unique now it is going to end up like the hoys qualifiers. As a judge I would rather put the pony through that is the best not a compromise with another judge.
|
|
|
Post by Mr B on Dec 22, 2006 21:24:09 GMT
"The marks take no notice of the go round or the final walk round."
Surely the initial go round does affect the marks? At least it should!
If if it was down to the final walk round or championship then performance can over ride marks - this often happens in Working hunters.
PS I prefer Mr B to Mr Bo for obvious reasons!!
|
|
|
Post by stinky on Dec 22, 2006 21:32:09 GMT
PS I prefer Mr B to Mr Bo for obvious reasons!! I can recommend Sure. Keeps you dry and smell free all day ;D
|
|
|
Post by Mr B on Dec 22, 2006 21:51:18 GMT
Strangely enough I do use Sure! I also go to Specsavers!!
|
|
|
Post by princess on Dec 22, 2006 22:48:36 GMT
Strangely enough I do use Sure! I also go to Specsavers!! Brilliant response LMAO ;D
|
|
|
Post by Def not on Dec 23, 2006 9:26:22 GMT
Mr B or Bo....I willhave to have a quick sniff next time your judging one of my classes! I appreciate what you are saying, however after being in several classes with a marks system it has huge faults. Mainly being that regardless of the catagory ie breed type, conformation, for the inhand section, the judge is still going to give higer marks for a horse they ''like'' as opposed to what is ''correct''. Also every judge has a different idea of what type a certain breed should be! I also agree that the marks system does ignore the initial go round, for many reasons: Firstly the 2 judges watch, yet only one is judging the performance, and in the majority of cases the judges stand in the middle confering deciding who to pull in. which brings in another point, if the marks given are what decided the places, why are horses still being pulled in? I fail to see ( mabey I am going off track a bit) how in a huge HOYS class a judge can watch and give every horse enough time to decide who to pull in. Alot of judges will pull in who they want anyway, I have seen horses bucking and throwing a hissy fit right in front of a judge and yet still be pulled in top.......how? Judges have how much time to judge an individual show? do you honestly think that the judges will be able to cope with giving out several marks?
|
|
|
Post by Mr B on Dec 23, 2006 9:53:08 GMT
You dont necessarily need two judges for a marks system and where there are two and ponies are drawn in order it should be as an indicator of how both judges saw the initial go round. Even if doing the conformation I like to take note of this phase but agree subsequent performance and close examination should then come into play. I agree there is no need to have an order you should be able to remember at least the most notable even in a large class.
What I'm really trying to suggest is a way of focussing M&M judging more on type. The marks may help this and there are no more marks to give than in WHP classes.
Nice to have a reasoned discussion rather than the negative critics.
PS.
Dont get too close it gets pretty hot under a bowler!
|
|
|
Post by one judge on Dec 23, 2006 11:18:30 GMT
IMO Judging an Olympia Qualifier by yourself without marks is the best way by miles, for me anyway. It allows you to completely focus on the class and concentrate throughout. I find giving marks is not impossible, but without breaking it up into small compartments, it isn't necessarily very meaningful or specific, and it detracts from my train of thought. To break the mark up further would make adding up more complicated and liable to error.
I have judged an Olympia qualifier with two judges a few years ago, and while a very good pony qualified, I couldn't absolutely guarantee that it would have been my first choice on my own. I do like to place ponies in an initial line-up, as it reflects what one saw in the class going round, much of which is borne out on closer inspection of conformation and type, and sometimes in their show.
It is only an initial line-up, and I'd happily turn it upside down, if I thought ponies further down the line deserved it, but I do think it helps consistent judging, and marking standards (if marks are used).
|
|
|
Post by hmmm on Dec 23, 2006 12:21:07 GMT
I have ticked the box for 2 judges because of the good points I can see with it. However, I know it has it's downsides too. I did one HOYs qualifier this year, the 2 judges stood in the ring together watching the 'go round'. The ride judge then pulled in the top 6 ponies in order and everyone else was told to just come in (18 ponies in the class) The shows and conformation phase were done then the results read out. The line up stayed exactly the same. I got the results sheet later on and the conformation judge had given decreasing scores for the ponies from top end of the line to the bottom with the last pony in the 'just come in in any order' getting the lowest conformation mark. This just throughly stinks. It wasn't just the one class these 2 judges caried out like this either. I got the score sheets from 2 classes and both were exactly the same.
I would definitely like to see ponies pulled in any order, it stops this kind of unfair nonsense.
|
|
|
Post by another judge on Dec 23, 2006 12:23:59 GMT
I also prefer to judge on my own and put the pony forward that deserves to qualify on the day. It would be a disaster to change the olympia competition. Also making rules to stop members entering whether they are professional or amateur this competition should be open to all.
|
|
|
Post by one judge on Dec 23, 2006 16:38:57 GMT
In response to Hmmm's post, wasn't the problem caused by the way the marks were allotted rather than the placing of the first six ponies, as two thirds of the class were pulled in in any order? Placing ponies shouldn't stop you marking fairly.
Pulling them in in any order runs a higher risk of a judge forgetting a pony's earlier misbehaviour or it's not going well in the class, and equally not rewarding sufficiently something which had really sparkled from entering the ring (IMO and especially in classes with 20 grey Connemaras, bay Dartmoors or black Fells!).
IMHO Placing ponies in an initial line-up allows a much better basis for comparison, which surely is what showing and judging is all about. I can't see where corruption or unfairness comes into this.
|
|
|
Post by 2 judges for me on Dec 23, 2006 16:56:16 GMT
I much prefer 2 judges and an initial pull in. I think most judges are going to give a pony that goes well a higher mark if it is stood top of the line rather than bottom as on the go round the top ponies are the ones going well if something goes round badly it rarely gets a good pull. The marks sysyem also allows a pony that has been missed on the go round to come up. How can any judge remember who did what without marks if it is a huge class.
|
|
|
Post by hmmm on Dec 23, 2006 17:35:58 GMT
In the class I am talking about the ride judge used only a range of 4 marks on all the ponies apart from 2 which she gave considerably less. So 16 ponies all had only 4 marks between them. This was bizarre in itself as some of the ponies misbehaved. The conformation judge then gave the pony at the top of the line the highest conformation mark and each pony below it got a slightly lower mark in a decreasing order from top to bottom. This ensured that the ponies pulled in below 6th couldn't possibly move up and the ride judges top 6 stayed in order. I do not believe that the conformation marking was fair, how could it be? When do you see a set of marks with a descending marking system in order like this. It isn't right.
|
|
|
Post by shelley on Dec 23, 2006 17:56:25 GMT
I still like the system the 2 judges at the Royal Welsh had last year - huge class of A&B ponies, easy to lose ponies. They worked as a team, pulled in an initial order, lined the pomies up, then pulled them out a few at a time to resift the order - gave them a good chance to see what they liked. I know it wasn't popular with everyone (I freely admit to possible bias, cos my daughter & pony took the ticket!) but at least all the ponies were seen. They also didn't stick to their original likes, as ponies were pulled up from lower down the lines in the final order. I thought it a sensible and considered approach, but unfortunatley haven't seen it since.
|
|
|
Post by Dont think so on Dec 23, 2006 19:50:55 GMT
In response to Hmmm's post, wasn't the problem caused by the way the marks were allotted rather than the placing of the first six ponies, as two thirds of the class were pulled in in any order? Placing ponies shouldn't stop you marking fairly. Pulling them in in any order runs a higher risk of a judge forgetting a pony's earlier misbehaviour or it's not going well in the class, and equally not rewarding sufficiently something which had really sparkled from entering the ring (IMO and especially in classes with 20 grey Connemaras, bay Dartmoors or black Fells!). IMHO Placing ponies in an initial line-up allows a much better basis for comparison, which surely is what showing and judging is all about. I can't see where corruption or unfairness comes into this. You can honestly tell me as a judge, that id you had a HOYS class of 20 plus ponies you could watch them all equally enough to decide wich horses to pull in and to allocate marks according to this...........? I really dont think so. As competitors chasing these qualifiers, I think we get to see more classes being judges then the judges themselfes, Half the time the judges miss half of what is going on. I have watched a horse buck and bronk in front of BOTH judges in a HOYS qualifier and still be pulled in 1st.....how and you mean to tell me that this pony should automaticaly get a higer performance mark because it was pulled in the top??? hardly fair. The best example of judging I have seen this year was the Royal Welsh, those two judges set a fantastic example of how the classes should be judged. I think this comes back to the whole point of the initial go round in this case.........its not fair to pull the horses and allocate marks according to their initial pull when not all the ponies can be judged equally. Also the initial go round can have no effect on the conformation marks..........yet still ponies pulled in at the top get higher conformations marks............maby as a judge you could explain how this is the case. Having 2 judges will not encourage people to do these qualifiers.
|
|
|
Post by one judge on Dec 23, 2006 21:04:53 GMT
The order I pull ponies in reflects my impressions of the ponies on the initial go-round. One can get a fair idea of their conformation at that stage eg. dippy back, short in front etc., and one gets a very good idea of their action, paces, manners especially in company, presence etc. The marks are not used for this, and it is purely an assessment for an initial line-up, which is open to much changing around. Like everyone else I do my best to notice (as much as possible) any bad behaviour and bring in such ponies low in the line-up.
The performance marks given thereafter are based on quality of individual shows, but I would hope to remember any earlier bronking or tanking off or napping. The conformation mark is given on what one sees stripped, often in extremely cramped conditions. If I like the 2nd pony better than the 1st I will give it more marks and if I like the 10th better than the 3rd I will do the same. That goes for performance too. Each pony is marked on its individual merits and not where it stood in the line-up
One isn't allocating marks according to the initial go-round, but one is bearing it in mind too. No-one wants a pony which is good-looking and has done a good show in top, if it has misbehaved badly on the initial go-round (whether judging or competing).
I have frequently had to judge without pulling ponies in, and with 2 judges, but I prefer to pull them in if allowed.
|
|
|
Post by Guestless on Dec 24, 2006 17:53:43 GMT
Remember everyone - if you want your vote to count then you need to get it submitted (by email now as post will be too late) by 27 December. You can't complain about how the classes are run in the future if you don't take the opportunity to have your say now. ....and Mr B - I've always found Natrel to be better than Sure which IMO tends to leave white marks on clothing!
|
|
|
Post by Eyes Wide on Jan 6, 2007 17:47:37 GMT
Does anyone no the results of the ballot???
|
|
|
Post by Antiques Roadshow on Jan 6, 2007 18:15:28 GMT
Let's guess how many were sent in and the prize will be a costly revised Rule Book! PS keep the first edition as it'll be very valuable one day! ;D
|
|
|
Post by freddo on Jan 7, 2007 10:23:37 GMT
I totally agree with mr b about the marks being split differently. I am from a classical riding background but look at Olympia for instance; there was a nice highland there that went very correctly but did it really go as that breed should or would it have been going better for a hack or riding horse class?
|
|
|
Post by anna on Jan 7, 2007 11:23:51 GMT
The council meeting was on 4th January so a decision should of been made. I've no doubt they will let us know as soon as possible.
|
|