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Post by lils on Jan 28, 2011 21:18:08 GMT
This is no dig at any one particular person, but having read through the stallion ad's, im amazed tha people are offering coverings for as litle as £100. IS this really going to help the massive overbreeeding problem which is occuring. IS your stallion really only worth that on his stud fee, if so, do you really feel he has his place in the stallion world?
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Post by khamilton1984 on Jan 28, 2011 21:30:24 GMT
100?? wow.... i think it depends on whether there registered etc... and sometimes offer cheap servings as they may not be proven. as i stallion owner myself my boy is up for stud at 300. and this his is first year . understand what your saying though.x
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gabby
Junior Member
<3 Ewyn Henri Lloyd <3
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Post by gabby on Jan 28, 2011 21:46:24 GMT
i know what you mean, seen ads for coverings as little as £40!! (even £20 for a shettie stallion i saw!!)
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mpc
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Post by mpc on Jan 29, 2011 15:46:00 GMT
I've often wondered the same, more to the point are these people being selective as to what mares they allow their stallions to cover?
I think stallion owners have a huge responsibility as to the quality of future generations of ponies/horses!!!
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Post by lils on Jan 29, 2011 16:29:38 GMT
I've often wondered the same, more to the point are these people being selective as to what mares they allow their stallions to cover? I think stallion owners have a huge responsibility as to the quality of future generations of ponies/horses!!! absolutely. I have stated for my colt, Approved mares only. Thankfully, he has had some gems come forward, but i would have no hesitation in turning away mares i felt were not of complimentary type to him. Homozygous is another thing which *can* be a problem with some of the coloureds, as people breed from mares which perhaps they might otherwise not, thinking well it well be coloured so its fine!! |
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Post by amanda on Jan 29, 2011 17:32:36 GMT
as a mare owner i think a lot of stallion owners should take a long look at what they are offering at stud, £100 or £500 stud fee makes no difference if the stallion is not top class and before you jump down my throat i also believe there are a lot of mares that are not upto standard, but breeding incorrect or not will not stop
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Post by lils on Jan 30, 2011 8:53:44 GMT
but do you not think if the stud fee is less of a throwaway amount, people might think twice about putting a mare in foal? which is the point im trying to make!
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sej
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Post by sej on Jan 30, 2011 9:34:07 GMT
I dont think the cost is the important factor, it all depends on the breed as well... if you take the Welsh sec A's, unless your looking at a HUGE winner in the show ring, normal stud fee is between £150 - £250ish.... doesnt mean they are poor quality, just the going rate so to speak.
I think the main problem is when you get people charging any stud fee and accepting any number of mares, no matter what quality they are. Also the studs who churn out 20 - 30 foals a year. I think stallion owners need to take responsibility for what their stallion produces, it doesnt matter if the stallion is amazing with a huge stud fee, if the mare is rubbish, you have a good chance of producing a rubbish quality foal.
My boys been covering for 4 years now and this is the first year I am accepting outside mares, mainly because I wanted to see what type of mares suited him best, this year he will cover a handful of outside mares but only ponies which I feel suit him and have good confirmation. I do not want poor quality ponies walking around making my boy look bad.
Im sure a higher stud fee would put off some people but it wont stop people who dont know enough but have the money from breeding a foal.
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Post by amanda on Jan 30, 2011 9:56:25 GMT
i suppose someone with a small unproven (albeit well bred) stallion cannot in this market charge the going rate! who would pay it? especially if the foal is to be bred to sell on by the time you have paid @£300 service fee added on the keep charges vets packages swabbing etc you then have to sell and we all know what prices are like at the moment, im not condoning overbreeding by using cheaper stallions but as i have said before stallion owners sometimes put on a higher value to the stallion than is realistic. ive come across some stunning youngsters from stallions that are at the cheaper end of the scale, same as i have seen some real disapointing
foals from the higher end, and as we all know two fantastic parents do not always make a good foal .
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Post by kilnstown on Jan 30, 2011 10:16:25 GMT
The fact is your stud fee is usually the cheapest part of breeding your foal, by the time you add in vets fees (eg scanning, swabbing ect) livery, travel expenses, looking after your brood mare in foal, these costs usually far out weigh your stud fee.
The fact is that its far cheaper to go and buy a foal than it is to breed one. I dont think the stud fee puts anyone off breeding, if thats what they really want, the fact is that horses are often part of family, and if someone has a mare that they love and cherish, most people want to have a foal from this mare to keep for themselves, regardless of wether the mare is of good confirmation or temperment, I'm not condeming anyone for this, its their choice. Lots of people put thier family pony in foal when thier outgrown to give them something to do, why?, to breed another pony that they cant use.
The overbreeding issue spreads across all horse and pony owners, its not just big studs that are causing this. From some of the threads I've read a lot of very good top quality producing studs covered less mares last year and are going to do the same this year, It may be a few years from now but the affect of this will come to light in 5 or 6 years time when people are looking for top quality youngsters, they will be few and far between, its bad enough now trying to find one, and yet there will be some that will consistantly breed with little or no regard to the over breeding problem, regardless of the stud fee.
I would like to see all breed societies access mares to see if they are fit for breeding, just the same as stallions have to be licesned, before any foal can be registered in their relevant stud book, I know this has been tried in certain societies before and not worked, but people should really really think hard before deciding wether to put their mare in foal.
Just an example a lady that lives near me had a mare Beautifull looking animal, but completely insane, totally unridable, they tried everything with her and nothing worked, what did they do?, thats right put her in foal, when said mare foaled what did she do? , tried to kill it, what did they do?, hand the reared foal, sent the mare back to stud to be covered again. Thank god they couldn't get mare in foal again. They now have a youngster with the same temperment as its mother. In my opinion completly senceless.
So as said by sej a higher stud fee will put some off, but not all with money and no sence, the price of the stud fee has little bearing on the decision to breed or not.
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Post by amanda on Jan 30, 2011 10:50:38 GMT
kilnstown i agree re grading mares stallions etc last time i mentioned it i  got shot down i do now buy my youngsters and have not bred for years, but i am sometimes diallusioned by some of the youngsters seen for sale by studs from their own breeding stock are mediocre to say the least sometimes a really good stallion of what ever colour breed etc does not throw top class stock from good or bad mares. you only have to hope that breeders will start to be more selective in covering mares and take a good look at what they are marketing themselves. and as kilnstown states the stud fee is only a small part in the costs be it £100 or £500 |
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jan 30, 2011 11:26:50 GMT
After breeding for almost 40yrs, I firmly believe that 75% of the foal is the mare, so I am very particular what I allow my boys to cover, as everyone always asks 'what is that ponies sire?'
I have upset a few folk turning mares away, but they usually get them covered somewhere, and the offspring I have seen have been just like the mare!
I too think mares should pass some sort of inspection.
My boys stand at no foal no fee to approved mares only, they are all fully registered and licensed, I only take registered mares and only take 6 visitors a year.
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Post by slj on Jan 30, 2011 20:12:03 GMT
I have bred a horses in the past where by the time I had paid for everthing stud fees, cost of livery , vets etc........in total of excess of £1,000 Im still left with offsprings I cannot sell for £1,500? If i found a stallion with a good progeny record and that was producing really good foals from all types of mares and with the stud fee of £100 , it would not put me off in the least............. as others have said what difference does the price of the stud fee make? Doesnt reflect the quality....  Nice to see some private stud owners offering their stallions to a ''limited'' ie/reasonable/sensible number of mares and not taking the micky out of ripping people off...like some studs I can mention where they are wheeling them out like a production line and couldnt careless what mares their stallions cover  Anyway how does the saying go..... ''The proof is in the pudding and not always in the paperwork'' |
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Post by amanda on Jan 30, 2011 20:51:21 GMT
well said slj |
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Post by hp on Jan 30, 2011 21:24:22 GMT
|I owm 2 stalions of different breeds. They do not stand at public stud. They were bought for my mares based on type and bloodline. I do get asked for coverings and they can BUT only if I think the mare is suitable. It is up to me to police the mares. I agree the mare is the main part. My lads can give the conformation but the mare gives the temperament
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Post by lils on Jan 30, 2011 21:59:58 GMT
I have bred a horses in the past where by the time I had paid for everthing stud fees, cost of livery , vets etc........in total of excess of £1,000 Im still left with offsprings I cannot sell for £1,500? Anyway how does the saying go..... ''The proof is in the pudding and not always in the paperwork'' absolutely, but the stallions ive read up on have offspring reaching ridden age and doing nowt notable ; / thats worrying, but on the other hand there is a sport horse stallion stands down near us, has done very little, crap temprement, and even their vet says if you went to the yard you wouldnt use it, charging £500 based on its pedigree, and has a full book but to be honest if you are charging a cheap stu fee, to a stallion which has stock on the floor, surely it does reflect the quality....? |
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Post by slj on Jan 30, 2011 22:19:28 GMT
I wouldnt say that they devalue their Horses/ponies Lils at a stud fee of £100 or less as some have said they have seen some at £40.  ....I think they arent being greedy and just might like to give a little of what they have to a selective few at an affordable price..... But i totally see what you mean that if the ''proof is in the pudding'' and that the quality of stock is of good quality for a purpose in which its intended than these stallion owners may be doing them selves out of a few quid.....Valid point Iresponsible( spelling if awful sorry!) stallion owners in my opinion is those that are breeding because they do and end up with 40+ foals that they have to 'get rid of' before next years come along. Then take them to market and not even getting their money back for the paperwork let alone the diesel and booking in fee. Or they are offering them free to good home, unhandled....no passports......or ask if a charity can take them?  ( my pet hate) Then try to pass the buck to these horse charities which are really there to help horses/ponies that have got into difficult circumstances and through neglect are in desperate need for help.....not there to bail out people who breed horses or ponies for the sake of it.... Yes definately agree GOOD stock on the ground should reflect the higher stud fee and mares owners you would think would accept this |
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Post by amanda on Jan 31, 2011 0:03:22 GMT
lils which stallion exactly are you refering to have you got an alleged bee in your bonnet re a paticular stallion /stallions @'£100 *homogyneous* sorry if spelt wrong i dont breed but id like to know asyou are a stallion owner what to avoid and what not. ive read up on stallions @ £500 + that dont achieve anything special to a mare who then goes on to breed a champ at national level to a significantly lower stud fee stallion.i each to their own unfortuanatley sorry for spelling ive read all stallion posts and can only link 1 or 2 to your comments? what exactley is wrong with these if their stock on ground have done nowt (quote)11 |
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Post by lils on Jan 31, 2011 7:13:46 GMT
lils which stallion exactly are you refering to have you got an alleged bee in your bonnet re a paticular stallion /stallions @'£100 *homogyneous* sorry if spelt wrong i dont breed but id like to know asyou are a stallion owner what to avoid and what not. ive read up on stallions @ £500 + that dont achieve anything special to a mare who then goes on to breed a champ at national level to a significantly lower stud fee stallion.i each to their own unfortuanatley sorry for spelling ive read all stallion posts and can only link 1 or 2 to your comments? what exactley is wrong with these if their stock on ground have done nowt (quote)11 As i said it was originally about low stud fees my posting, it was about a few stallions, on this forum, and generally advertised. i do not have a 'bee in my bonnet' over low stud fees in particular, but the overbreeding problem in full, but, as i started the thread, surely it is polite to respond to the posts? Is that not forum etiquette? And yes, i am a stallion owner, and my boy is early in his (Sucessful) career, i have considered his stud fee carefully, compared him to stallions of similar type, quality and experience, which is how i came to his fee which i consider fair, and has attracted the type of mares( and owners!!!) im looking for. I have invested in him, having a small amount of Semen frozen( as he will be castrated in the next couple of years, even if the foals are top class) and offering AI at no extra cost ( as im trying to encourage it) also, he is EVA/EIA/CEM free, which quite a few stallions are not tested for He is Fertile, but his first of a (very small) handful of foals are due soon, hence,it is a slight chance even though i went out and found mares to compliment him, they may not be of the quality, i am personally trying to acheieve, therefore he is available to limited approved mares only. I personally believe i am taking a responsible approach to breeding, ( you may disagree, to which i will not be offended). I think it is a little unfair you have drawn Homozygous and 'little as £100 ' into one statement, and have gone on to assume, then pick which stallions i was referring to. They were different points i was making, which you seem to have ignored. I have used 1 homozygous stallion,so im not against them. I was very pleased with the results, and he has plenty of stock on the floor doing very well. It is now back to the mare owners, if they are breeding to sell ( which i do not, but unfortunately rarely get fillies!) to at least get the best sire and dam, and i really wish grading or checks of some sort were mandatory, for mare as well as stallions ( and yes i do use proven/graded) as why use a stallion that has stock on the floor, which are below average, and unlicenced,surely if you believe in your boy, do him right!! modified for spelling! |
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Post by ffynnoncadno on Jan 31, 2011 12:09:51 GMT
:)Grading :-/Took one of my boys for grading and he failed the inspection as did a lot of quality horses,but on the vetting the vet was most impressed as were a number of people and the vet commented that my horse was the best one there  As for mares...if I have a poor quality mare arrive for covering then I always suggest the use of my grey arab as I can guarantee the foal will have good conformation,a trainable and easy temperament and movement to die for My stud fees start from £100 for my sec D,£150 but going up to £350 for my 2 arabs,£150 but going up to £250 for my Thoroughbred,the 2 Irish sport horses and 5 Irish draughts are all £350 at the minute depending on what I do with them,but it will not be any less  My mares are in foal this year,but I will only be putting mares in foal again to pre order and deposit My stallions are licensed and are very well bred and are tested and mares are expected to be tested aswell |
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Post by amanda on Jan 31, 2011 16:18:15 GMT
lils maybe its just the way i read the threads it seemed to me that the comments were linked but i have obviously got the wrong end of the stick (drrrr) i applaud you on the way you are running your stud and the measures you are taking to ensure good stock! if only some other studs were as conscientious and i agree as a mare owner you have to be realistic about your mares and make the right choices ,just as i would hope stallion owners can stand back and take a realistic view of their boys |
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Post by wilmira on Jan 31, 2011 16:55:05 GMT
If it is my stallion you are referring to, I have put him at stud for £100 as I feel in this climate by the time a mare owner has travelled to and from paid for mares keep and all other expenses re scan swab etc they will have plenty of money in the foal, I am only taking 3 mares so not putting him cheap to get lots of coverings for him and he has plenty of stock on the ground proving themselves worthy of the show ring so not because he doesn't produce quality,
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Post by proclins stud on Jan 31, 2011 17:54:52 GMT
If it is my stallion you are referring to, I have put him at stud for £100 as I feel in this climate by the time a mare owner has travelled to and from paid for mares keep and all other expenses re scan swab etc they will have plenty of money in the foal, I am only taking 3 mares so not putting him cheap to get lots of coverings for him and he has plenty of stock on the ground proving themselves worthy of the show ring so not because he doesn't produce quality, i can 2nd this he is a very good stallion ,and i know wilmira wouldnt be allowing a load of mares ,i would be looking towards the bigger breeders ,people breeding more foals then u can count on 2 hands . |
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Post by tigger on Jan 31, 2011 20:03:48 GMT
I hadnt read this as being about any one stallion in particular just the situation in general, maybe I'm missing something?
I quite agree about the stud fees but would also go further and say some societies should also look at their registration fees. With the general overbreeding problem I cannot understand how some people are calling for societies to subsidise the foal registrations to make it cheaper (its only around £25 now!!) - how is that discouraging people from breeding in their masses.
I am another like Lils (and many other responsible breeders no doubt) that limits the number + quality of mares that come to my stallion. In fact the number of foals he had by the time he was 10 was still in single figures! Currently all of his youngstock out there competing have been placed at county level so I feel he's now proving himself well.
Sadly I am also aware that there are a lot of mare owners out there that fancy breeding a foal from their mare that do base a lot of the decision on cost - if there is a 'nice' stallion up the road that costs £100 they may well chose that over the better stallion for £300 or £400.
While the majority are, not every mare owner is knowledgeable enough or responsible enough to assess which is the best stallion to complement their mare regardless of cost.
I dont think that there is any one answer to the overbreeding problem though, and the issue of stud fees is only a small part of the answer.
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mpc
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Post by mpc on Feb 1, 2011 10:25:57 GMT
I quite agree about the stud fees but would also go further and say some societies should also look at their registration fees. With the general overbreeding problem I cannot understand how some people are calling for societies to subsidise the foal registrations to make it cheaper (its only around £25 now!!) - how is that discouraging people from breeding in their masses. Sadly I am also aware that there are a lot of mare owners out there that fancy breeding a foal from their mare that do base a lot of the decision on cost - if there is a 'nice' stallion up the road that costs £100 they may well chose that over the better stallion for £300 or £400. While the majority are, not every mare owner is knowledgeable enough or responsible enough to assess which is the best stallion to complement their mare regardless of cost. I dont think that there is any one answer to the overbreeding problem though, and the issue of stud fees is only a small part of the answer. Quite agree with all these points! |
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sej
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Post by sej on Feb 1, 2011 11:16:05 GMT
But then you get to the question "how many is too many?" when covering own mares and covering outside mares.
With the current over breeding going on, what is an acceptable number of foals to breed? 2? 5? 10?
I have 6 mares stables, so 6 foals is the max number of foals I will breed a year BUT I only breed what I can keep, I refuse to sell foals for pennys just to free up space, if a good home does not come along, I will happily run all my foals on and therefore not breed for the next year or two until I have the space once again.
So say I bred the max number of foals I would breed, ie 6, then covered say 6 outside mares.... doesnt seem a lot on there own but added together thats 12 foals born by my boy in 1 year... 12 foals produced by a relatively small stud... that is a lot of ponies!
I would personally rather cover my own mares then outside mares and would not like to have that many foals born a year by my boy, be it from my mares or outside mares or a mix of the two.
So I guess to link back to the original post, it wouldnt matter if I charged £50 or £500 stud fee, my responsibility lies in the number of foals I allow my boy to produce.
So what is worse? Charging £50 - £100 but only producing say 4 foals a year OR charging £300 - £400 and producing 15 foals a year?
Can you say the low stud fee would be only accepting rubbish quality mares? Nope... Can you say the higher stud fee would only be accepting good quality mares? Nope... And can anyone say that they know for sure that the higher stud fee would be producing 15 great quality foals who would go on the be top class show ponies, or jumping ponies or ridden ponies?... Nope!
Responsibility for stallion owners goes far deeper then how much they charge as a stud fee.
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Post by lils on Feb 1, 2011 11:58:58 GMT
Yes- well i can anyway. again goes back to grading and using proven mares ( which im all in favour of).
re the numbers- Welton Stud-for instance i recall reading recently they were producing lots of animals- and they really seemed to be doing the job, and whilst i dont doubt that there will be a few that dont make the grade, i bet if comparisons were made of a random say 20 welton horses compared to say a random 20 small stud, for acheivements within each animals field, i would be pretty confident that less of the animals from a stud such a welton failed. ( and please, im only using welton as example, could use schokemole ( SP!!) for instance.
IF the stallion is producing inferior stock, then charging £50/£100 and producing 1 foal is worse than a good stockgetter charging £3-400 and producing 15 foals. ( not sure that is what you were saying though!!)
Back to the point re homozygous, what im trying to get across is i frequently get asked can i recommend a homozygous stallion, why am i being asked about Homozygous, surely you should look at the stallion and if he homo it a bonus- BUT people are putting colour before quality.
If your stallion is Coloured, why not evaluate him,(on more than one occasion) grade him,get his offspring getting first premiums,(on more than one occasion) Surely that really is the proof that he is worthy,
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sej
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Post by sej on Feb 1, 2011 13:22:10 GMT
Well thats just taking a general statement and making it specific for yourself, which I thought the whole post was meant to more general then aimed at specific people, which is how I meant my reply to be taken, so we can't say that everyone who charges a higher stud fee would think the same as you or I would.
My main point is the actual cost of the stud fee has no reflection on people being responsible.
If people are the type of person who would not be picky about mares used with their stallion, then £1000 stud fee would not change that. If people are picky over the mares and stallions they use, a low stud fee would not mean they are going to use rubbish ponies to breed.
It isn't about the types of mares you attract... its about the type of mares you accept.
My main point is it isnt the price they charge but the level of responsibility they take.
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Post by wilmira on Feb 1, 2011 15:15:35 GMT
lils are you saying my foals are inferior now
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mpc
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Post by mpc on Feb 1, 2011 15:40:36 GMT
Wilmira.....I don't think that was the intention!
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got shot down 
....I think they arent being greedy and just might like to give a little of what they have to a selective few at an affordable price..... 
( my pet hate) 
