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Post by Rockstar on Jan 31, 2011 18:24:14 GMT
it means when you see the young girls holding their stick vertical with the reins in one hand and their stick being held vertical on their thigh with the other hand --- like all the hunter boys do in champs -- sorry if i did not make that clear before Its SOOOOO hard when you are a girl, especially in the hack classes, to pull something flashy and different off (rather than 'just' putting your hand on your knee). The boys can take off their hats etc which looks So classy but what can the girls do? I personally think that done well, the stick on the knee looks very elegant. Like anything, its when its done badly that it looks so wrong..... |
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Post by CarolineNelson on Jan 31, 2011 18:33:28 GMT
How I agree with you Caroline. Formidable was the epitome of how a hack should ride, but then I have found every horse produced by John Keen to be a most beautiful ride and a great example of the genre. Thanks! I believe that I was the first (and probably bravest) Ride Judge to place this horse Champion - which was at Taplow in 1980something - at possibly his first ever show, when he had just won the .... Novice class. What talent. However, we digress. I realise that there are show organisers and a young show pony jockey contributing to this thread, who havent a clue (why should they, at their ages) about which horse we are speaking of, or the ability to give such a 'ride. So, how do we reach out to them?? Or else, in our modern life, such a 'feel' when riding will be lost under a blanket of "I use a this (gadget) /or I use a that". Adrienne, as you so rightly say, this man and this horse used nothing more than talent. Isn't that what showing is all about? (and dear lady with your new hack; hopefully this litle reminice by a few oldies will aid you on your quest). |
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Post by LucyHebditch on Jan 31, 2011 18:35:00 GMT
It seems that the more TB in a hack nowadays the better they do.
There was an article in Showing World a while back describing the perfect hack.
I can remember that they must have a mouth like silk, make every movement look effortless, have outstanding movement and she be pure perfection.
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Post by CarolineNelson on Jan 31, 2011 18:40:03 GMT
it means when you see the young girls holding their stick vertical with the reins in one hand and their stick being held vertical on their thigh with the other hand --- like all the hunter boys do in champs -- sorry if i did not make that clear before Its SOOOOO hard when you are a girl, especially in the hack classes, to pull something flashy and different off (rather than 'just' putting your hand on your knee). The boys can take off their hats etc which looks So classy but what can the girls do? I personally think that done well, the stick on the knee looks very elegant. Like anything, its when its done badly that it looks so wrong..... If you can 'just' put your hand on [just above] your knee (in, of course, a 'flirty' way) then what more do you need.... The whole idea - stick/hand - is to show that the animal is so well schooled that it can be ridden off the little finger of ONE hand. Actually, I don't mind a lady doing the 'stick' thing.................... providing that she can still steer the horsey easily and doesn't look as though she 's giving herself a cheap thrill with the stick............... It is a movement which simply MUST be performed elegantly, my dear!! |
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Post by onthebridle87 on Jan 31, 2011 18:46:26 GMT
I have seen Hack riders dismount and then remount in their shows before. Is this common practice?
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Post by Rockstar on Jan 31, 2011 18:52:59 GMT
Its SOOOOO hard when you are a girl, especially in the hack classes, to pull something flashy and different off (rather than 'just' putting your hand on your knee). The boys can take off their hats etc which looks So classy but what can the girls do? I personally think that done well, the stick on the knee looks very elegant. Like anything, its when its done badly that it looks so wrong..... If you can 'just' put your hand on [just above] your knee (in, of course, a 'flirty' way) then what more do you need.... The whole idea - stick/hand - is to show that the animal is so well schooled that it can be ridden off the little finger of ONE hand. Actually, I don't mind a lady doing the 'stick' thing.................... providing that she can still steer the horsey easily and doesn't look as though she 's giving herself a cheap thrill with the stick............... It is a movement which simply MUST be performed elegantly, my dear!! I couldnt agree more!! like I said, done well it is very elegant, done badly (like anything) its awful!! |
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Post by haggis on Jan 31, 2011 19:06:33 GMT
i know Eward rode Legal Eagle , the Hollings horse i was recalling was Fair Breeze the name has just poppoed into my head
SS you are so right about how do we reach out to these people so come on peeps how do we do it
and the keens Grey hack was amazing i saw him at Wembley on the friday night when he went Hack of the year, they also had the lovely small Oakley blowing bubbles i think grey small, and of course Brown Buzzard - he was not a pony !
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sc
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Post by sc on Jan 31, 2011 21:20:36 GMT
How I agree with you Caroline. Formidable was the epitome of how a hack should ride, but then I have found every horse produced by John Keen to be a most beautiful ride and a great example of the genre. Thanks! I believe that I was the first (and probably bravest) Ride Judge to place this horse Champion - which was at Taplow in 1980something - at possibly his first ever show, when he had just won the .... Novice class. What talent. So, how do we reach out to them?? Or else, in our modern life, such a 'feel' when riding will be lost under a blanket of "I use a this (gadget) /or I use a that". Adrienne, as you so rightly say, this man and this horse used nothing more than talent. Isn't that what showing is all about? [/i][/quote] It was 1984....(first show with Mr Keen on board it was their son James who brought him out first! at Lonsdale with the much missed Mr Toulson judging) - Formidable was truly special - Oh if I could turn back time Quite how you make people learn that a quick fix as in 'gadget of the day' does not always work I don't know. I do think the younger generation could learn a lot just by watching. It can take several years to make a horse. Not every horse will be a show horse they have to have that certain something that you can never quite put your finger on. There are so many horses shown now that just would not of made it in to the ring in the past, and the creation of the newer classes just widens the pool of 'oh dear what a pity' horses causing confusion and the need to ask 'what is my horse'. They are perfectly nice horses but not 'show horses' and perhaps some of the fault lies with the owners who are set on showing what they have and trying to make it 'fit' in to a class. I think Brown Buzzard did Show Hunter Pony classes at one time. |
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ets
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Post by ets on Jan 31, 2011 21:40:22 GMT
thanks all for your comments, i have attached a picture of my mare, forgive the coat, having just rode at aintree after four months of rest through illness it was done to stop her getting too hot and sweaty.. needing that bit in top line, she is very light in the hand and will work with a long loose contact, her action can be seen in the picture...
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kayjayem
Happy to help....a lot
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Post by kayjayem on Jan 31, 2011 22:38:48 GMT
This has been the most fascinating thread and I echo all that has been said, I have not competed in Hack classes at top level myself as i do not think I could do justice to them either time wise or with a horse of a high enough calibre(the only one I did have which to my mind could have made it was not sound enough due to racing as a 2yr old, although she did breed me a HOYS SP) but one thing which hasn't been mentioned here is freedom of movement from the shoulder. Plenty of hacks will flick their toes and have "straight knees" but they absolutely must move from the shoulder to achieve the elevation thus giving the lightness in hand which is essential for a true hack.
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ets
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Post by ets on Feb 1, 2011 10:27:15 GMT
the chestnut in the picture is just under 15 hands.. ridden will appear to be much bigger... her movement comes through her shoulder and hind quarters, often ridiculed as a young horse as people would assume she was lame!!! can be a different ride sometimes, having a prollapse disc i know too well! lol...
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Post by CarolineNelson on Feb 1, 2011 11:13:18 GMT
I have seen Hack riders dismount and then remount in their shows before. Is this common practice? It was a brave Showman's practice in bygone years; again, to prove good training and manners. I believe it was done recently and very professionally (by an outstandingly talented and elegant young showman) at P(UK) in a Supreme Championship. On the 'Cinders' at Wembley in the early days of me competiing in Hack classes, I vividly recall another talented and well-known rider attempting the same manouvre - but by the time he'd reached the other side, the horse had pi##ed off................. |
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Post by haggis on Feb 1, 2011 11:25:10 GMT
ah but what if good old H&S got hold of this , i too recall people doing that sometimes i have even seen them do "half scissors" heaven hopes they do not pop along to a show and see people riding with one hand, riding with their sticks on their thighs , they would have a fit
must say this is a good thread and i hope has made some people think about what and how a hack is and goes
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Post by jinja on Feb 1, 2011 11:32:29 GMT
The horses you name are all beautiful but from the past, so what hacks do you think are good examples of how you percieve a hack to be that are on the circit today. The young people who want to learn need to be able to see the animals around today.
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Post by haggis on Feb 1, 2011 11:45:02 GMT
in no order but
how about Golden Gunner, classic chauvinist, daldorn legacy, under the stars, royal tropper, anything the Keens have, royal angel - i like better as ahack than an inter, and some of the Becconsall animals both in large and small
please do not take offence if you are not on this list it is just a few that spring to mind
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Post by CarolineNelson on Feb 1, 2011 12:04:30 GMT
The horses you name are all beautiful but from the past, so what hacks do you think are good examples of how you percieve a hack to be that are on the circit today. The young people who want to learn need to be able to see the animals around today. Jinja, I really understand where you're coming from. However, as a Judge, I personally wouldn't wish to name names on a forum, it just woudn't be correct. What I would say though, is that it is, in my view, imperitive that the old traditions are not allowed to die out due to lack of knowledge. So, study the 'Masters' and their presentation skills. The key is 'understated elegance'. The quality "Intermediate" could and probably should be presented as a "Show Hack" - but the style which has already evolved in the Intermediate classes is slightly different as the 'pony rider' style frequently persists when 'maturity' should be taking over. If the "Intermediate" rider competes with and against the senior showmen (and women) - studies from the ring, the ringside and pictures from the past, with a bit of inginuity, the skill and mannerisms will rub off. The younger rider needs to 'think' Viennese Waltz' rather than 'bump and grind'............ What a grizzly old f@rt you probably think I am!! |
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Post by jinja on Feb 1, 2011 13:07:23 GMT
Not at all SHSM I value your opinion as you obviously have a great deal of experiance. My daugher is 28 so too old for intermediates, I am not talking about my family in particular. However and this is not directed at anybody in particular just in general, but sometimes I struggle with the constant putting down of the intermediate riders and their horses. I think that a lot of the top large INTs that go to HOYS are good hacks, some are riding horses and a small minority are neither. Examples are Royal Angel who was a hack before he was an INT, he has won and been champion at HOYS. Another horses that does both is Opium Cassa Leona whom again I think is the most beautiful horse but has won at the highest level in both classes, both with young riders on board who have taken on the big names and beaten them. There are many others I could name but have just given you examples of the ones that have won the biggest accolade of all champion at HOYS. Sadly I do not think enough credit is given to our young riders, we have some real talent out there, and whilst I am a traditionalist about most things, I do feel we have to have new blood in the sport. We have got to encourage our younger generation as they are our future, both as judges and competitors.
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Post by zeebeedee on Feb 1, 2011 13:11:44 GMT
From memory I think the Showing World article on current hacks had one of the Keen's horses, possibly Beaconsfield Pickpocket (who has of course now measured out) and Amezola (grey retrained racehorse) and one other that I cannot remember.
I do think that there are too many overgrown show ponies in the hack classes which is distorting the type away from the true old fashioned hack and also agree with the poster above that there are nice horses that are not true to any particular type so not show horses however nice they may otherwise.
Mind you these are just the random comments of someone who really doesn't know much at all.
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Post by jinja on Feb 1, 2011 13:30:03 GMT
Zeebedee, you misunderstand me although I said some horses in the INT classes at HOYS are not hacks or riding horses, I did not mean they are therefore not show horses because of course they are. Believe me if a horse has qualified HOYS in an INT class it will have had to beat a huge class of lovely animals to get the coveted ticket. We had a large INT 'The Tempest II' he was a prolific winner in the INT classes over the 3 year we had him but he was not big or scopey enough to go on to do a HOYS riding horse class. I realise I am not very good at getting my point across. I am a big fan of the INT classes and I make no apology for that it was a sad day in our house when we were out of the class. However I have bred 2 beautiful animals from my small INT who is a true hack stamp, her mum was a successful hack many years ago. In a couple of years when my 2 year old goes under saddle we will be showing her in the hack classes.
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Post by zeebeedee on Feb 1, 2011 13:51:14 GMT
Sorry if misunderstood you, but I think there are horses that are not show horses however nice they are. A friend had a lovely horse she bred and did well dressage on it but he would not have fitted into any category of show horse properly, if that makes sense. The type of show class that would have suited him was for a competition horse so like the Burghley Young Event horse as he was just not a riding horse or a hunter. Anyway I digress from the original post so sorry!
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Post by jinja on Feb 1, 2011 14:28:49 GMT
Totally understand what you mean Zeebeedee, we were just on different wavelenths.
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sc
Junior Member
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Post by sc on Feb 1, 2011 21:42:23 GMT
The horses you name are all beautiful but from the past, so what hacks do you think are good examples of how you percieve a hack to be that are on the circit today. The young people who want to learn need to be able to see the animals around today. So, study the 'Masters' and their presentation skills. The key is 'understated elegance'. The quality "Intermediate" could and probably should be presented as a "Show Hack" - but the style which has already evolved in the Intermediate classes is slightly different as the 'pony rider' style frequently persists when 'maturity' should be taking over. If the "Intermediate" rider competes with and against the senior showmen (and women) - studies from the ring, the ringside and pictures from the past, with a bit of inginuity, the skill and mannerisms will rub off. The younger rider needs to 'think' Viennese Waltz' rather than 'bump and grind'............ What a grizzly old f@rt you probably think I am!! Part of the problem as I see it is that there most certainly are good young riders with decent horses that should be encouraged to go in the open class. Perhaps the naming of the class is wrong and should be more focused on the rider than the horse as it is supposed to be a transitional class taking riders into adult showing it is really a restricted by age class with no distinct type, as that will be down to a judges preference. Should the class be judged on the riders style, show and maybe its time for the horse to be ridden as opposed to attempting to judge 'conformation & type'. As the biggest difference between pony showing and entering the scary world of adult showing is that the horse is ridden by a judge. |
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ets
Newbie
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Post by ets on Feb 1, 2011 22:28:28 GMT
well, i have to say.. i have been enlightend by the thread..
last year saw a poor and quiet turnout for hacks in the northwest, i believe only 2 went forward at the warrington show and 8 at cheshire.. smaller shows see classes less than ten!
please correct me if i am wrong.. is it that the hack as dwindled? i ride my chestnut mare as a small hack (park) and have a young mare that tb x han, from lunge she is maybe not as straight as the other mare but as a slight flick in the knee before pointing her toes... judging from her current height at 2 and half years old being 15.2 she may grow too tall for the large hack...
my reason behind the thread is really because there seems to be more and more larger horses coming forward, heavier than the hack with shorter less elevated paces, my observation is that they do because they are not big enough for riding horses, or is that the trend for the riding horse as become too big and more like the hunter..
in times gone, the hack was as it says, the park hack, ellegance for showing off and fun, whilst meeting its name around the parks of london.. the large hack, i believe to be the commuter.. to and from work, or out into the country to the where the hunter was stabled..
the concept riding horse, being quite modern as a stop gap between the hack and hunter?
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Post by lils on Feb 1, 2011 22:42:38 GMT
this is a lovely, enlightening thread to read, esp from the 'old school'  |
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Post by jinja on Feb 2, 2011 8:48:04 GMT
I agree I love to hear about what the more experienced judges look for hence me asking for horses they like today. I do however feel the intermediates are a class of their own, yes they started off as a stepping stone but they are much more than that now. Anyone who watches a HOYS qualifier for the intermediate classes can see there are always 20 + forward, they are show horses not show ponies, the class is unique as they are not ridden by the judge, why is that a bad thing? personally I prefer to watch my daughter ride than a judge, what is wrong with ? The hack classes are dwindling, pitiful entries at some shows, so that tells us we need to do something about this or we will lose them. In this money oriented world will HOYS keep letting them have a class at HOYS if they are not bringing in the levies, I think not, and it would be a crime if we lose them. I do think the BSHA has started to recognize this and is encouraging the younger members to join and take part and this needs to embraced by all concerned.
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Post by teamwebster on Feb 2, 2011 14:50:34 GMT
this is my large hack... i've never had one before her! would you say she is a good example?  yes i know the saddle is a bit far forward!!!! thanks Sophie x  |
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Post by Rockstar on Feb 2, 2011 19:36:12 GMT
The quality "Intermediate" could and probably should be presented as a "Show Hack" - but the style which has already evolved in the Intermediate classes is slightly different as the 'pony rider' style frequently persists when 'maturity' should be taking over. If the "Intermediate" rider competes with and against the senior showmen (and women) - studies from the ring, the ringside and pictures from the past, with a bit of inginuity, the skill and mannerisms will rub off. The younger rider needs to 'think' Viennese Waltz' rather than 'bump and grind'............ I completely agree. There are many horses which do Hacks and ISRTs but I think they need to be presented differently for both classes, and 'go' very differently. |
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Post by rl on Feb 2, 2011 23:18:03 GMT
This thread has been absolutely fascinating; as someone who dabbled in hacks as a teenager, when there WERE'NT any Int classes, I completely concur with shsstablemanager - ELEGANCE and MORE ELEGANCE! In my young days at Catherston (before Dutch Warmblood days) there were many beautiful hacks, young and old, This is a tradition that should not be allowed to die it is part of our British heritage. There will ALWAYS be Hack classes - both Home Produced/Restricted and Open - at Royal London.
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Post by amanda on Feb 2, 2011 23:36:45 GMT
team webster i would perhaps post another photo she looks a tad long in that shot not a criticism but she looks a real star just not the best photo |
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Post by teamwebster on Feb 3, 2011 8:39:44 GMT
team webster i would perhaps post another photo she looks a tad long in that shot not a criticism but she looks a real star just not the best photo yes i see where your coming from its because the saddle was to far forward for some reason. thankyou will get another picture for you |
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