ets
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Post by ets on Feb 6, 2011 19:16:08 GMT
a true and stunning hack...
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ets
Newbie
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Post by ets on Feb 6, 2011 19:18:46 GMT
my orphan, 8 months old..
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Post by hollycane on Feb 6, 2011 19:33:07 GMT
What a wonderful, helpful and jolly interesting discussion. We need more of you in hack classes!!! The key word is elegance. Lots of good advice on here from (dare I say it...) the old timers. But do not feel intimidated, if you are not sure if you have a true hack. Come and have a good long watch at the early shows, see the seasoned performers use the ring and real showmanship to get the best from their animals. There are very few true hacks out there and when you see one, you know it.
If you are not sure about doing the one handed thing, don't do it. It's a pet hate of mine as so many riders do not do it well, crunching forward and tensing pushing the horse onto it's forehand with a locked jaw. Not elegant at all!
A mouth of silk needs to be ridden with hands of silk. But a good showman can make something out of a sow's ear and sometimes that's all part of the magic of the whole picture.
IMO hacks are bred in the hundreds, they just go into racing and become harder to find.
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Post by LucyHebditch on Feb 6, 2011 22:14:07 GMT
Completely agree with hollycane that a high percentage of top hacks are never discovered because they race! A lot of you will have seen this before, but this is an example of a promising TB we found who has not dissapointed us in becoming what we think, a good potential hack.   |
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cindy3
Junior Member
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Post by cindy3 on Feb 6, 2011 23:38:24 GMT
I have a hack, and an ISRT. They are both stunning in their own right, but are completely different types. My ISRT is going to start open classes this year.
However with the direction the classes are taking at the moment, some of the top class ISRT's way of going are just like the hacks. It seems, to be at the top of the line in a HOYS qual, riding one hand on the rein (whether you like it or not) walk to canter, rein back, and the "hack canter", are all part of their shows. In an effort to "out-do" eachother, their way of going is becoming more sophisticated, meaning the class no longer (in my opinion) bridges the gap between child and adult classes.
I think the Hack is so important to the showing world, it does indeed define elegance. However I think that there are some elemants that make competing in the class very difficult. There are no marks. I think the hack has an element that can't be defined in a simple 50/50 or 60/40 mark scheme, but it is easier to see where you are going wrong when you can see which part you are lacking in. Marking might also mean that judges can give a more obvious explanation of what they believe is a hack. Meaning the class might go back to being a specific type, old or new, rather than a mish mash of lots.
If we want the Hack class to survive then obvious support needs to be shown. As they are ridden by the judge and their own rider, it is a long class, and HOYS have cut the number of qualifiers to reduce the time it takes on the day. I went to see the hacks at HOYS last year and I think cutting numbers is tragic.
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ets
Newbie
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Post by ets on Feb 6, 2011 23:42:25 GMT
ycm... you have obviously seen my horse out, you say i look big? i am only 5'7 and my horse standing 15 hands in shoes, she is not that small and only just fits in the small hack height limit, maybe i should shorten my stirrups?
you are welcome to your opinion, how do you feel about the rider of the horse in the picture at the top of this page?
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Milliesmum
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COCKERP00S RULE!!!
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Post by Milliesmum on Feb 6, 2011 23:58:52 GMT
ets - please don't take this the wrong way as I'm trying to be constructive, but in the pictures you have posted of the chestnut, there seems to be a lot more horse behind the saddle than in front. If you look at the one at the top of this page, the picture has the rider more in the centre of the horse, and gives a more even look, I don't know if I'm explaining myself very well here! Maybe it's the saddle you are using? perhaps a different saddle would show off her front more and even up the picture?
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ets
Newbie
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Post by ets on Feb 6, 2011 23:59:13 GMT
anyone for thoughts to my other young mare as a potential hack?
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ets
Newbie
Posts: 39
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Post by ets on Feb 7, 2011 0:13:18 GMT
young mare
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ets
Newbie
Posts: 39
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Post by ets on Feb 7, 2011 0:14:34 GMT
play time
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ets
Newbie
Posts: 39
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Post by ets on Feb 7, 2011 0:15:51 GMT
milliesmum.. no offense taken, yeah the saddle is a bit too big, would not mind but its a dressage cut, sadly i had my lorry stolen, with her other saddle, a vsd cut, much better as it shown her shoulders more..
will give you credit, now i have looked i can see exactly what you mean, i always put my saddle forward as you would normally... looking now at older pictures with the vsd, the saddle is back like you have pointed out, i will look at this in the morning, and see if my saddle will move back, or buy a new one!
thanks, goes to show... you can look at things of your own and never see the reality..
:-)
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Milliesmum
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COCKERP00S RULE!!!
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Post by Milliesmum on Feb 7, 2011 0:25:15 GMT
Phew, was hoping I wasn't going to upset you!!! Sometimes looking at something from a totally fresh perspective (I don't really know the ins and outs of hacks, was just comparing the pictures) you can see things differently! The picture at the top of the page, you could draw a vertical line in front of the saddle and behind, and the horses body would be in three equal sections.
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ets
Newbie
Posts: 39
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Post by ets on Feb 7, 2011 0:42:30 GMT
lol... no way have you upset me.. i opened this thread for that reason, where as my horse fits the bill for small hack, ok sometimes her temper can let us down, hot headed to say the least, dare i say, typical chestnut mare...! the hack show be of the highest in manners and temperment! lol... i am glad you have pointed the saddle out... only recently did i realise i should wear a tweed!
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Post by handcanter on Feb 7, 2011 10:55:57 GMT
cindy3 the hack is and has always been a type, very well defined. It is only recently that the type itself has become harder to identifyin competition classes because of the animals in those classes, not all of whom are true hack types. The ISRT is not and never will be a hack. They are distinct types. That is not a problem in itself. The problem is the lack of true hacks which have meant that hack competitions are dominated by non-hacks which has led to the mistaken belief that hack type is the same as ISRT or over grown 14.2hhs.
Ultimately we dearly need competitors in hack classes to at least keep the spirit alive. But perhaps the true type may be lost forever.
As to the way of riding, the youngsters adopting the faux adult way of riding (rather badly) in ISRT classes does not make them into hacks or hack riders.
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Post by haggis on Feb 7, 2011 11:21:31 GMT
i must say what a nice thread this is and all so constructive and everybody taking on board what people are trying to say, i know i have gained from this thread
maybe we should have other threads on "what is a-----"
if they all remain this polite
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Post by CarolineNelson on Feb 7, 2011 12:46:21 GMT
cindy3 the hack is and has always been a type, very well defined. It is only recently that the type itself has become harder to identifyin competition classes because of the animals in those classes, not all of whom are true hack types. The ISRT is not and never will be a hack. They are distinct types. That is not a problem in itself. The problem is the lack of true hacks which have meant that hack competitions are dominated by non-hacks which has led to the mistaken belief that hack type is the same as ISRT or over grown 14.2hhs. Ultimately we dearly need competitors in hack classes to at least keep the spirit alive. But perhaps the true type may be lost forever. As to the way of riding, the youngsters adopting the faux adult way of riding (rather badly) in ISRT classes does not make them into hacks or hack riders. Agree with the above, in particular, your last para. However, at least those 'young riders' whom you have mentioned are trying to have a go at 'upping their game'. Otherwise, the Intermediate classes run the risk of having Young Adults (not children, 90% of these people are of working age) still riding - presenting their animals- as if their skills and style of presentation has not progressed in their last 10 or so years. Which is why (here I reiterate) it's so helpful if these 'Young People' become members of the HORSE Society/ies of their choice - and ride in with/compete with/ rub shoulders with the experienced show men and women. (Positive) peer pressure can be a wonderful thing. Believe me, it soon rubs off. Observation and a determination to achieve - to better one's self - the best trainer ever. If you doubt me, just look at the excellent young athletes we have coming along in MAINSTREAM sport, both on the track and in the pool. |
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sassie
Junior Member
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Post by sassie on Feb 7, 2011 13:38:14 GMT
lol... no way have you upset me.. i opened this thread for that reason, where as my horse fits the bill for small hack, ok sometimes her temper can let us down, hot headed to say the least, dare i say, typical chestnut mare...! the hack show be of the highest in manners and temperment! lol... i am glad you have pointed the saddle out... only recently did i realise i should wear a tweed! did you mean to say 'shouldn't wear a tweed' you should wear a navy jacket for Hack Classes... . this is a brilliant thread by the way, I am also venturing into hack classes this year and find this discussion really interesting!!! |
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Post by flagmountmolly08 on Feb 7, 2011 13:44:49 GMT
any thoughts on my little mare?? full TB, just turned 5 standing about 15hds  |
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Post by meagain on Feb 7, 2011 14:31:44 GMT
The picture of Liberty Light is very thought provoking, there will be a few who will remember the horse and it was also its way of going along with the ride that made it so special. There is a saying 'every picture tells a story'...
There a several references to horses owned by Mr & Mrs Keen and the comments of how 'good a ride' their horses are, and this is one of the major parts of what makes a Hack, along with a great eye for conformation and type.
There are some very nice animals in the intermediate class but when in open classes they are still presented and ridden as if in a pony class along with the fact that many are over conditioned and can then therefore look more pony like. There are also some very good young riders but they need to get out of their comfort zone and compete in the open class where they could learn so much just by being 'in the class'.
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Post by jinja on Feb 7, 2011 15:04:20 GMT
I have to say I am now getting very confused. A true hack can and in fact several do compete in the intermediate classes. I agree not all intermedaites are hacks, some most definatley are.
The intermediate classes are supposed to be show horse not show pony classes. I have never agreed with 14-2s being allowed in the small intermediate class, because of this people have labelled the classes as pony classes, but the true small intermediate should be a small hack type. The large intermediate are mainly large hack or riding horse stamps.
I do hate the snobbery shown toward intermediate classes by some people. I would love the BSPS to do away with the name intermediate and just have open riding type classes without age restriction. I would bet money that a lot of the adult riders would then start to compete in these classes on their hacks and riding horses to get another ticket to HOYS.
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Post by handcanter on Feb 7, 2011 15:19:30 GMT
jinja I agree it is indeed confusing! But I think the confusion is only regarding the type of animal that enters and competes in the hack class not actually about what is truly a hack. As true hacks are so hard to find it is acceptable that animals of not quite the right type are entering the class otherwise we would not have any entries at all. The hack type is based on guidelines and the only rules are regarding height. This is right.
All other "type" classes suffer from exactly the same issue and there has been healthy debate as to what is a RH as opposed to a LW Hunter, what makes a MWeight or the difference between LW and HW cobs and Small Hunters.
As in all of these classes if I possessed a 15.1hh Clydesdale with 11 ins of bone, there is nothing to prevent me entering a hack or cob or small hunter class, but it is up to the judge to place my animal according to the guidelines for type, conformation and manners.
That's showing!!
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Post by jinja on Feb 7, 2011 16:35:25 GMT
I realise that you are saying judges can only judge what is put before them but Royal Angel and Opium Cassa Leona are lovely animals and they do well in both hack and intermediate classes at the highest level.
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Post by penny h on Feb 7, 2011 17:30:43 GMT
I haven't posted on here for ages and rarely look in on HG these days because of past unpleasantness, but this is a really interesting thread particularly with the imput of caroline and adrienne . Liberty Light truly is the epitome of a hack but nowadays would also win the Intermediates too. I do not believe there should be a difference in type apart from obviously the Intermediates including riding horse types - good examples of either should win. I prefer my Intermediates to be proper show horses who are capable of holding their own in hacks, riding horses or hunter classes.
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Post by jinja on Feb 7, 2011 17:51:18 GMT
Well said Penny.
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Post by CarolineNelson on Feb 7, 2011 18:52:06 GMT
I haven't posted on here for ages and rarely look in on HG these days because of past unpleasantness, but this is a really interesting thread particularly with the imput of caroline and adrienne . Liberty Light truly is the epitome of a hack but nowadays would also win the Intermediates too. I do not believe there should be a difference in type apart from obviously the Intermediates including riding horse types - good examples of either should win. I prefer my Intermediates to be proper show horses who are capable of holding their own in hacks, riding horses or hunter classes. Thank you Penny - firstly for your kind comments - and then for the confirmation- as, (logically) your view echoes mine! I think it's very easy for people to think of the BSPS Intermediate classes (particularly the under 153cm class) ONLY as the Show Riding Type - which is the class that absorbs the 'overgrown' 148cm Show ponies (many of which are better suited to their 'new' classification - and also the 'not-quite-made-it-as-a-Show Hack types. But don't forget that there are some super Intermediate Show Hunter Type/Small Show Hunters around - and of course, the Intermediate WH. The confusion arises as the Intermediate's are (obviously) run under the banner of the BS PS and therefore some folk will immediately think "PONY" But, we digress from 'what is a Show Hack'? Indeed, that word was missing in the initial thread header. But, to me it's a vital ingredient. |
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cindy3
Junior Member
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Post by cindy3 on Feb 7, 2011 19:11:37 GMT
I completely disagree jinga!! The hole point of the Intermediate class is to give a stepping stone between child and adult classes. Not to give adults more classes! I agree with shsstablemanager, I also think that if there should be any change to age restrictions it should be that the cut off is 20-21 not 25.
I'm 18, and if I want to do an adult class I will do it on my hack, or a hunter. But I shouldn't be forced to compete against adults because there are no other classes left.
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Post by jinja on Feb 7, 2011 21:00:49 GMT
Cindy once you turn 18 you are an adult.
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cindy3
Junior Member
Posts: 142
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Post by cindy3 on Feb 7, 2011 21:15:15 GMT
I may be an adult, but I haven't had the experience of 25+ year olds!
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Post by tigger on Feb 7, 2011 21:46:12 GMT
I haven't posted on here for ages and rarely look in on HG these days because of past unpleasantness, but this is a really interesting thread particularly with the imput of caroline and adrienne . Liberty Light truly is the epitome of a hack but nowadays would also win the Intermediates too. I do not believe there should be a difference in type apart from obviously the Intermediates including riding horse types - good examples of either should win. I prefer my Intermediates to be proper show horses who are capable of holding their own in hacks, riding horses or hunter classes. The best thing I've read in a long time. ;D I've thoroughly enjoyed reading all the views - especially as I am trying to breed hacks + intermediates. I have found it disappointing though that (and this is just my opinion) it is still considered to be a thoroughbred - and only a thoroughbred - that is hack. To many people breeding part bred arabs + anglos its hugely disappointing to still be up against that belief. I agree that type + elegance are extremely important, but they can also exist in a quality part bred. By implying a thoroubred is a hack can be confusing surely to some coming into the sport as there are a great many quality thoroughbreds that are riding horses or even hunters. I think that possibly the 'true' hack of the past being referred to has changed over the years, rightly or wrongly. But that is no different to hunters and riding horses surely?? A riding horse now would have been a hunter a few years ago! So if the quality, conformation, movement and elegance of the modern hacks is there why is it so wrong that they are slightly different 'type'. To have a show horse (hack or riding horse) that is also able to compete as a part bred arab or intermediate does at least give the 'rider' more than one class to compete in. Surely in these credit crunch times going to a county show and competing in 2 or 3 classes for the same amount of fuel is much more appealing to the one horse owner. I would imagine that all show animals - riding horses, hunters cobs etc have all changed or 'evolved' over the years so I dont see why the same should not be accepted for hacks. Please don't take that to mean that I dont think they should look like hacks anymore - i dont mean change that much  Just my opinion of course.  |
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Post by hollycane on Feb 7, 2011 22:21:25 GMT
interesting points pennyh regarding Liberty Light and the possibility of it doing well in Intermediates today. I tend to agree that it would because of its elegance and correctness. However I also agree with Handcanter in that the type of animals entering the ring may not actually be of perfect type but be perfectly adequate based on guidelines for type. The judges opinion and judging guidelines should sort them out in their order of merit according to conformation etc.
cindy3 you need to just jump in!!! Us old folks were all riding in adult classes at 17 and definitely 18 as there were no intermediate classes then. it did us absolutely no harm and not everyone had years of experience either. I'm not sure what all the fuss is about?
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