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Post by marymary on May 22, 2011 11:47:31 GMT
Dr W.D. at the beginning of his sale report says "of the 203 Welsh ponies etc etc - 149 were sold" Why would he say 45 Criccieth ponies were sold if only 13 were sold ? The question still remains - What happened to the other 32 ? Maybe Brightwells PR Guru would be able to answer that , his comments on this matter so far have been interesting.
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Post by jebediah on May 22, 2011 12:14:26 GMT
Dr W.D. at the beginning of his sale report says "of the 203 Welsh ponies etc etc - 149 were sold" Why would he say 45 Criccieth ponies were sold if only 13 were sold ? The question still remains - What happened to the other 32 ? Brightwells in their results list the 13 individually Then say colts and filles sold to a total of £1180 If that was for 32 lots average £37 each, rather less than costs incurred microchipping, registering (if they were) and passporting
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Post by bonnieheather on May 22, 2011 12:17:36 GMT
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Post by diane on May 22, 2011 12:17:47 GMT
The Auctioneers only list the Lots sold generally.
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Post by poneydestiny on May 22, 2011 12:32:40 GMT
Hopefully someone has bought a criccieth pony at this weekends sales that we can track down, put a "Supreme Champion" banner around its neck and bring the poor dear to the demonstration next Saturday for instance... also the other idea about buying a couple for evidence is spot on
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Post by poneydestiny on May 22, 2011 12:36:18 GMT
Great important information being shared thank you everyone, the Core Group is up and running about 7 strong for coordination and to take the ball and run with many of the great suggestions - if you would like to be part of a sub group please send me an email pony@royalwelsh.net - this is truly an entreprenurial operation - if you have an idea and would like to run with it do not hesitate! The Core Group is the overseeing body to just coordinate all the efforts as best we can as this is rapidly snowballing HELLO THE ENEMY WE KNOW YOU ARE ON THE FORUMS AND WE ARE GLAD YOUR DAY WILL COME - AND FOR THOSE FENCE SITTERS, WE HAVE A DISCRETIONARY CATEGORY FOR THOSE OF YOU WHO CANNOT BE UP IN THE FRONTLINES, BUT HAVE NEVERTHELESS IMPORTANT THINGS TO SAY - contact me please we will protect you!
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Post by aphrodite on May 22, 2011 12:49:18 GMT
What amused me..... is those that have 'furnished and redecorated' the Criccieth Stud with their beautiful well looked after ponies to protect Mr Evans, are actually putting their own ponies at risk. I hope they are and will keep an eye on them, otherwise they will end up in the very sad state that that lovely stallion did earlier in this post and the well documented mares and foals. My rose coloured glasses hope that the sad ponies that have been 'hidden away' are now enjoying full tummies on some super grazing hidden away in the welsh hills somewhere. So thank you to Mr Evans friends for taking responsibility for this mans neglect and helping these poor ponies. Keep up the good work.
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Post by bonnieheather on May 22, 2011 12:49:19 GMT
If anyone has any suggestions of key organisations/people to target to contact they would like to share - don't worry if they're being repeated - please PM me. Confidentiality assured.
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Post by sparrow on May 22, 2011 13:05:57 GMT
Dr W.D. at the beginning of his sale report says "of the 203 Welsh ponies etc etc - 149 were sold" Why would he say 45 Criccieth ponies were sold if only 13 were sold ? The question still remains - What happened to the other 32 ? Brightwells in their results list the 13 individually Then say colts and filles sold to a total of £1180 If that was for 32 lots average £37 each, rather less than costs incurred microchipping, registering (if they were) and passporting In the earlier part of the sale every animal was named and numbered the sale price was listed or W/D or N/S was entered Why were the Criccieth ponies listed differently ? Why don't Brightwells want the public to know how much each pony sold for or if they sold at all.?
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Post by marymary on May 22, 2011 13:13:32 GMT
Please see the FB page for a post by Millcroft Stud regarding the breeders who are speaking out against this and have issed a statement on their respective websites. www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=905045050#!/pages/Action-To-Stop-The-Plight-of-Welsh-Ponies/225970867417760
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Post by bonnieheather on May 22, 2011 13:28:14 GMT
Taken from FB...Four Welsh studs - Sunwillow, Millcroft, Rockbury and Roseview have made open statements on their websites regarding welfare issues. Hope more do the same.
I applaud you all.......we will not be bullied by cowards.....
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Post by brindlerainbow on May 22, 2011 14:44:06 GMT
Thats brilliant that 4 good studs have had the balls to do this. Lets hope that other breeders follow thier lead ![:)](//storage.proboards.com/forum/images/smiley/smiley.png)
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Post by diane on May 22, 2011 14:50:18 GMT
Thats brilliant that 4 good studs have had the balls to do this. Lets hope that other breeders follow thier lead ![:)](//storage.proboards.com/forum/images/smiley/smiley.png) Whilst I have great respect fro the Studs who have given their backing on their websites I do notice that they are all quite a long way from the area the stud in question resides in. It is difficult for those of us on the doorstep in N Wales who fear reprisals against our selves or our stock ![:-/](//storage.proboards.com/forum/images/smiley/undecided.png)
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Post by marymary on May 22, 2011 15:00:05 GMT
I'm in North Wales and I will not be kept silent by the 'band of brothers' any approach against myself , my family or my animals will result in the matter being handed directly over to the Police
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Post by amumwithapony on May 22, 2011 15:00:55 GMT
I have only just read this thread after being on holiday all week. It took me an hour this morning to go through it and I think you have all done a fantastic job so far of making your voices heard. However you need to bear in mind what you wish to achieve by doing this and what potential outcomes there will be, not only for the ponies in question, but future ponies. The only person that can take anyone to court for a cruelty case is the RSPCA. The RSPCA will only act if they think an animal is in imminent danger or distress or missing on of the 5 freedoms. It would appear that the ponies have now been swapped and moved around so that the ponies all look as though they are cared for. A judge can impose a lifetime ban on a person to prevent them from keeping animals again. We all know of instances where a person with a life time ban continues to keep animals, usually in some one else's name. The WPCS could revoke his membership. However he could still register his ponies in someone else's name, or simply not bother registering them with the WPCS and get them a standard passport. The stud in question has been the subject of many internet discussions over the last few years and its always, always the same when he sends a load through. Always a dispersal sale, always loads of rough ponies, always a hoo haa over what stallion produced which foal. I have said it before and at the risk of being shot down the only way to stop this vicious cycle of breed/sell/breed/sell is for people to stop buying at sales, stop looking for bargains and rescue cases and stop funding the likes of Mr Evans slush fund. Pay a decent price from a decent reputable breeder, boycott the sales altogether and that will eventually stop people overbreeding. With regards to the immediate problem of this stud in particular it has been an 'immediate' problem for a while now as I understand it and the RSPCA have been involved in the past and I do believe have already tried to take him to court. Its all very well blaming the WPCS, the RSPCA, local authorities, auctioneers and so on an so forth, but the responsiblity does also stretch to the people who have bought stuff at sales in the past. If people stop buying then people stop breeding in this way. I wont attend sales because I know I would want to bring every rescue case home with me and we really are just funding a circle of breed/sell/breed/sell. Unfortunatly for the ponies still owned and still being covered by the stud it means a very dire future BUT this stud and others will eventually change their ways. Or go bust trying, loose their land and hopefully all their stock and eventually will stop. But at least people are trying to do something this time. It usually gets forgotten about in a few weeks. ![:'(](//storage.proboards.com/forum/images/smiley/cry.png)
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Post by marymary on May 22, 2011 15:03:18 GMT
Anyone looking at this thread if you know which transporter transported the ponies from Criccieth to Builth than please can you forward that information , I have been asked to put this on here by a group of WPCS members looking into a conflict of interest situation also involving the WPCS, I dearly hope that by getting the name of the transporter this conflict of interest will prove to be false. Those wishing to remain anonymous than I am sure a Moderator will not mind if you PM the information to them for it to be forwarded to the relevant parties thank you.
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Post by roseview on May 22, 2011 15:04:32 GMT
I have never hidden my identity on any forum where I have posted. In the past I have posted against welfare issues (and others), as have Millcroft stud. Following one such incidence I was clearly identifiable to the person I named who took me to task for it when we next met, both at an association meeting and at FO. However, I refuse to be forced to keep quiet about something I believe strongly in, regardless of where I live.
Millcroft have been very prominent in our area for speaking up about the fate of the Dartmoor bred ponies, letters and articles have been published in the press from them.
I fail to see how anybody should fear reprisals just for stating their views on overbreeding and welfare. It's not as if you are making reference to any other studs, near or far and we all know that there are many, many breeders where things are not as they should be.
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Post by bonnieheather on May 22, 2011 15:18:25 GMT
Round of applause Roseview, I am with you every step of the way.
We are fighting for the right thing, for the proper treatment and responsible breeding of them.
We are not scared of these bullies...
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Post by brindlerainbow on May 22, 2011 15:28:32 GMT
I agree Roseview.If no studs are named and breeders are just making thier views on over breeding and welfare known then if there are reprisals it will come to light just who those people are that support over breeding and bad pony management. I also agree with AMWAP that if people attend these sales and "rescue" ponies then the brigade of over breeding,uncaring,pony starving breeders are on a winner as they have made a sale which encourages them to continue overbreeding. Official breed sales of all breeds not just Welsh should be a showcase for responsible breeders. These sales should be full of fit,healthy,happy ponies with proven parentage. They should fetch a fair price for thier breeders. Buyers need to think with thier heads when attending sales not with thier hearts!!! Reward the responsible, kind breeders NOT the cruel over breeders.
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Post by Milliesmum on May 22, 2011 15:38:00 GMT
Can I just say, there ARE people who for various reasons cannot post publicly, this doesn't mean they are not doing their bit! If anyone needs to pass information or evidence on without becoming personally involved I'll gladly act as go between and you can be assured of my absolute discretion.
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Post by pentaran on May 22, 2011 15:40:58 GMT
A mumwithapony is making one of the best contributions so far. I agree totally that people should just refrain from buying from people like this at the sales, however valuable their bloodlines are supposed to be. Or from pity . That way his market will end, surely if he took emaciated sheep/cows etc to market he would be reprimanded, Even cattle going to market are to be clipped/cleaned of manure dags before going through an abbatoir. A horse has no such protection . Just stop buying them. There are people out there who in this sale got less than this man for their well cared for ponies. These thin ponies may well sort out gradually but they are walking time bombs of gut damage, encysted redworm, aneurisms and who is going to be ultimately paying for expensive vet treatment maybe years down the line. Certainly not this breeder. I am as welsh as anyone else and also live in North Wales . Have never purchased a pony from this person but have had a foal bred by him to be fostered by one of my TB broodmares , he was one of the lucky ones, but this man would not selfishly give a covering cert for this pony to be registered as a proper little section A . a) because of greed and b) the dam was just one of hundreds of grey ponies so it would have been beyond him to know who she was anyway. There is certainly an element of the Welsh Taffia at work behind the scenes here. And no doubt like a lot of us we will get indirect jibes and digs at shows when we see his supporters, some of us might be unlucky enough to actually receive more rough treatment at their hands. We need to keep at the WPCS to uphold not just their charitable responsibilities but their moral one as well when faced with such an outcry by the membership. Remember WE are the WPCS not the council. I know most of them will currently be gagged from making personnal statements but surely you arent all tarred with the same brush are you ? or are we wrong.
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Post by sageandonion on May 22, 2011 15:47:41 GMT
I told you AMWAP knew what is what and she is right. So glad she is back from her holiday. How long have I been screaming Stop Going to the Sales!!!!!!! for every so called bargain you get, dozens and dozens of ponies are living in misery.
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Post by sageandonion on May 22, 2011 15:49:01 GMT
Forgot to say, it is Sunday night and we have a week of work to do on this coming.
Shall we have a separate thread with an action list for next week?
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Post by ladywell on May 22, 2011 16:09:38 GMT
amumwithapony - I absolutely totally agree with all you say - but we cannot absolve the auctioneers and the Society from all of this. The auctioneers have been conducting 'dispersal sales' for this man for years. The Society have made the breeder an Hon Life member and he is also a judge. Surely there is some responsibility there?
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Post by diane on May 22, 2011 16:10:52 GMT
Please do not put people off going to Sales and buying from the good breeders out there...they are being hit hard enough by the "mercy" buyers. For every 1 poor pony there are dozens turned out in Show condition.
I am also easily identified on Forums (as I think it was Roseview who stated) and do not hide behind a user name. I have also been "warned off" in the past when discussing welfare issues.
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Post by bonnieheather on May 22, 2011 16:25:28 GMT
Disgusting behaviour!!!!
But you are quite right - there are many, many beautiful, healthy, happy, cared for ponies going through sales...
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Post by amumwithapony on May 22, 2011 16:33:29 GMT
Ladywell you are right there shold be some responsiblility taken by the WPCS and by the auctioneers. BUT they will not be able to drastically affect what this, or indeed any other stud will do for the reasons I stated earlier. Only the RSPCA can prosecute (and they have to privatelty prosecute I believe) for cruelty, only a judge can ban a person/fine a person or even imprison a person. No one else can.
Any sales ring ought to have higher welfare standards. Any potential buyer should want to buy stock in the best condition. The WPCS should condone what he has done and strike him off, but I doubt that by doing this it will stop him breeding. Neither would realistically a ban, just make his paperwork a little more time consuming.
But how do you raise standards at sales? If a vet on the day of the auction passed that mare that we have seen pictures of as fit to be sold then who ultimatly decides on the day what goes through and what doesnt? And what happens to the stuff that doesn't go through? Surely the best way to stop stock like this turning up is to stop the market for it. I'm sure he wouldnt be able to sell stock like that privately.
If people stop going to sales and boycott the lot of them and everyone has to sell privately then surely people will reduce numbers? Especially if they have to dispatch of unwanted/unsaleable stock themselves. It will be much easier for lots of people to send stuff to auction (usually colt foals) and convince themselves that the foal they have brought into the world through choice has ended up somewhere nice to be loved and looked after for the bargain price of £28, not really loaded up onto the meatmans wagon and shot shortly afterwards. Far better for the colt foal to have been shot at home than face the stress of a sale but then he wouldn't have his chance then would he?
Far better he not need a chance and have not been born in the first bloody place.
Yes what is happening at this stud and others like it (I am sure there are others, in fact I know) is abhorrent, cruel and evil. You may be able to take action against this 1 stud and save the ponies he has there and future ponies he hasn't bred yet from ending up like this but why dont people realise that for everyone you buy and pay £50-£200 for he and others like him will breed 4 more?
If everyone stops buying from auctions like this then mass breeders like this will loose their market and stop breeding. Welfare will improve accross the board and decent honest breeders will benefit from decent honest buyers who arent looking for a 'bargain' and are prepared to pay a decent price for a decent, wellhandled, well looked after pony.
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Post by diane on May 22, 2011 16:57:19 GMT
I also think AMWAP that people pay good money for these ponies. If you look at recent Sales prices mares have made in the thousands for their blood lines. No axe to grind...no longer keep A's to breed. Modify because I meant to add that I have huge respect for SJP who I know, and who started this thread ![;)](//storage.proboards.com/forum/images/smiley/wink.png)
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Post by poneydestiny on May 22, 2011 17:22:33 GMT
Sales Organisations should be pressured not to take ponies in frightful condition - it should just not be allowed. Do you imagine for an instant that in Switzerland for instance one sees animals in this condition on the sales circuits? What third world country are we in? If Brightwell's likes to portray themselves as prestigious auctioneers why are they involved in a sordid trade of meat ponies for such little revenue to their bottom line? Where is there business sense as the corporate risk/reward for such poor ethics management policies in terms of sales will definitely come back to haunt them and cost them far more than all their glossy brochures. The WPCS's mission is to uphold the standards and quality of the breed and maintain the market for the breeders - none of that is presently being done Economics 101, as long as the WPCS does not make itself more vociferous on the matter of starving ponies being brought to sales where they are present, they are in fact, deteriorating the market and impacting the livlihood of the breeders - why on earth would they want to do that? There is absolutely NOTHING TO GAIN with such a strategy FOR ANYONE - At the sales one could demonstrate with pictures to show what Brightwells actually sells
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Post by hs on May 22, 2011 17:27:03 GMT
My understanding is that BW and TC have issued a statement admitting the ponies were in a poor condition and that the only reason that the ponies were passed by the vet is that BW/TC were worried about the ponies welfare if they were returned home.
They state that they are knowledgeable equine professionals unlike the "emotional women". Surely if that is the case the statement from BW/TC should help the RSCPA and WCPS make the appropriate sanctions?
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