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Post by viking on Jul 8, 2015 12:17:06 GMT
Starting at the other end, so to speak, as a breeder I would try to target each pony to the right job for it, and an untypey one would not be aimed at a breed ridden class anyway. They all have their good and bad points, and all have a place in life. Showing isn't everything! Exactly Sarahp, and if more owners were to understand and do that, there would be far less disappointment.
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Post by Guestless on Jul 8, 2015 12:23:23 GMT
All Breed representatives should be so typey as to instantly 'tell' you what it is. Again in my Mother's words, the animal should have a metaphorical flag on it's head! Agreed but I also think some judges need to think outside the box. My grey Fell is typey and at 12.3hh is really a little bit small to be a Highland but I've had at least 2 judges this year refer to her as such. There are so few grey Fells on the circuit that I know it is an uphill battle and I've just bought a new gilet to show her inhand that says "The Fell Pony" on it to offer a clue If the judges would just stop and take a look at her and paint her black, they would be in no doubt as to what she is and her movement should give it away if they are still stuck.
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Post by comanchediva on Jul 8, 2015 12:44:50 GMT
All Breed representatives should be so typey as to instantly 'tell' you what it is. Again in my Mother's words, the animal should have a metaphorical flag on it's head! Agreed but I also think some judges need to think outside the box. My grey Fell is typey and at 12.3hh is really a little bit small to be a Highland but I've had at least 2 judges this year refer to her as such. There are so few grey Fells on the circuit that I know it is an uphill battle and I've just bought a new gilet to show her inhand that says "The Fell Pony" on it to offer a clue If the judges would just stop and take a look at her and paint her black, they would be in no doubt as to what she is and her movement should give it away if they are still stuck. Oh, this doesn't bode well, we are buying a grey Fell foal who will be with us in the autumn. Can't wait to get him home but I know we will come across this as well at some shows. You would have thought that Murthwaite Windrush's success in recent years would have helped with this! That being said, we also have a bay Fell and people often ask what breed he is. In a class recently a judge asked that question but she then placed him first and he stood section champion so I'm not sure what to make of that one. At the same show we were also asked if he is a Dales and at 12.2hh he'd be a very small Dales! Guestless I'd love to see a photo of your grey Fell
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Post by Guestless on Jul 8, 2015 15:03:30 GMT
Agreed but I also think some judges need to think outside the box. My grey Fell is typey and at 12.3hh is really a little bit small to be a Highland but I've had at least 2 judges this year refer to her as such. There are so few grey Fells on the circuit that I know it is an uphill battle and I've just bought a new gilet to show her inhand that says "The Fell Pony" on it to offer a clue If the judges would just stop and take a look at her and paint her black, they would be in no doubt as to what she is and her movement should give it away if they are still stuck. Oh, this doesn't bode well, we are buying a grey Fell foal who will be with us in the autumn. Can't wait to get him home but I know we will come across this as well at some shows. You would have thought that Murthwaite Windrush's success in recent years would have helped with this! That being said, we also have a bay Fell and people often ask what breed he is. In a class recently a judge asked that question but she then placed him first and he stood section champion so I'm not sure what to make of that one. At the same show we were also asked if he is a Dales and at 12.2hh he'd be a very small Dales! Guestless I'd love to see a photo of your grey Fell You will probably be fine - I'm in Scotland and there aren't that many Fells up here, never mind grey ones Attachments:
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Post by comanchediva on Jul 9, 2015 5:11:49 GMT
Thanks Guestless, she's lovely x
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Post by newportshowfarce on Jul 12, 2015 7:06:34 GMT
Sageandonionagain TSR has posted on this thread I think on the first page. We have been following it of course and we are regular contributors to various discussions. Our judges selection process is rigorous and to go on the HOYS panel you have to take a second assessment in a live situation having been on our O panel for more than 2 years. However what is being talked about on here has nothing to do with assessment it is all to do with perception and integrity. Perception is very important - if you are a main sponsor at a show you should not show in classes at that show not that it breaks any rules but the perception to other competitors is poor. If you show regularly in a class you should consider if again you can be scrupulously fair to your fellow competitors if you turn round and judge them the next week again the perception. Tit for tat judging does occur and is not always intended but again the perception of facey judging or helping friends hangs over the result the answer is not to do it at all however much it might mean turning down a HOYS judging appointment or leaving your pony at home.In this Facebook age nothing goes unseen. An earlier poster suggested that now everything is held on a data base it is possible to track marks and trends this possibly is the way forward as a pony that all season scores under 30 marks suddenly is awarded 48 then pehaps that judge should be asked what they saw in that pony to award the high mark.As a judge I would relish the chance to say why I think a pony should be awarded a certain mark but in many cases judges do hide behind the marks as nothing ever has to be verbally substantiated. I think the BSPS were responsible for bringing in marking in the first place but they are now universally used and I personally would like to see a column for comments and perhaps an overview on the tannoy as competitors are so often left in the dark over why a mark was awarded. Marking was supposed to have ironed out problems such as are aired on this thread but actually they can make it easier as judges do not have to speak to their co judge just give the mark. Perhaps I have gone off the point a bit but be assured if anyone writes to TSR we will respond and take the process through to conclusion. No whitewashing we promise ! I urge anyone with a genuine complaint to write to Grandstand Media as the HOYS Q classes are their series and this is where most of the problem seems to be.I am quite sure they will not sweep it under the carpet if it is substantiated. Wendy [br I have just returned from Newport Agricultural Show and have to say the above post absoleutly made me howl as I have just witnessed what can only be described as the most hypocritical and blatant example of bad/facey judging involving a high profile member of TSR that I have seen in a long time. To explain to those not there the cob class was originally scheduled to be held in main ring approx 11.30. My friends as competitors checked with the horse secretary who had posted an amended schedule on the show office window stating a change in the class time & location to 2pm in ring 1. They also verbally confirmed this. Ms. Chapman of TSR was judging this class and takes it upon herself to MOVE the class back into main ring at 12.30. This judge DID NOT tell the horse secretary (according to him) and NO tannoy announcement to competitors was made to keep them updated of this change and allow time and the opportunity to present themselves for judging. To compound matters further funnily enough (and I fail to see the coincidence) a professional who travelled a considerable distance to be at this show despite it only being a local level agricultural show with no qualifiers, knew about this ring & time change along with 1 other competitor (out of 5 entered and on the showground) who we believe found out by pure luck. NO other competitors came forward for judging as they all still believed the class to be at 2pm as stated by the horse secretary. And what a coincidence the pro producer wins!!! Now the funny thing is that said producer has a widely known connection with Ms Chapman having held show clinics with her and is in fact judging the HOYS Cob classes at the TSR show at Onley next week!! To add said producer then went on to take Supreme of Show with considerable prize money attached!!! To me this fits into the category of faces/friends judging friends/faces and is more than a blatant example of this making a total mockery of the show and the judging process and to some extent TSR who Ms Chapman represents. So in your above post (and others) when you talk about inregrity, perception of facey judging and best not to judge friends, fairness etc that TSR promotes I find this VERY hypocritical and I strongly suggest that you need to review this whole shocking scenario at Newport orchestrated by one of the founders of TSR who surely as a figurehead should be whiter than white herself!
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Post by the showing register on Jul 12, 2015 10:21:41 GMT
Newportshowfarce
We will reply in full shortly I need to get all the facts first.
Wendy
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Post by the showing register on Jul 12, 2015 11:06:17 GMT
Thank you for your comments I have spoken to Sarah Chapman and we would like to comment
Newport Show is a lovely Country Show but yesterday had some problems with timetabling the classes. Sarah had a co judge Jean Marsden for every class. They were in the hands of their steward as regards rings and classes and they adhered to the printed timetable of the cobs being in the main ring neither of them were aware of any other info made available to exhibitors. They waited until 4 out of 5 entered cobs were forward and then judged the class. The professional rider who won the cobs was Jill Wormall. In the championship judged by Sarah she was reserve champion on her cob and a pony won it. Sarah did not judge the Supreme this was judged by David Machin.
This raises some interesting points.Sarah does indeed know Jill Wormall and has done for for many years she also knows quite a large number of other competitors that she judged at Newport Show. Some such as Jill have taught at clinics that she runs or have been riders at the clinics. After speaking to her this morning she is sad that anyone saw her judging as facey as in several classes amateurs beat pro riders. The whole ethos of TSR is to make a level playing field and Sarah would be the first to agree.
I think producers should think carefully before taking established animals to a show like Newport and many others like this held during the summer if you have an unpredictable novice then OK you need to put miles on the clock but to many amateur exhibitors anything else looks like pot hunting and creates bad feeling. The judge has to judge what is in the ring and must always do that fairly and without fear or favour and put up the best horse or pony.In this case I understand the winner did nothing wrong so you cannot deny it the rosette.
Regarding the comment about Jill Wormall judging at TSR Summer show she is indeed judging and is a respected judge like all the judges at the show we expect the highest standards of integrity.The judges are not chosen by Sarah she only does the secretarial side for the show.
If you would like to e mail or ring Sarah can speak to you direct about your concerns.
Wendy
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Post by newportshowfarce on Jul 12, 2015 11:39:57 GMT
Many thanks for your reply but to correct you there were 2 cobs forward out of 5. Jill Wormalls and another exhibitor on a coloured cob. I am sure of this as the other 2 were complaining at the horse secretarys office at the same time as myself and the published results will bare this truth out. The horse secretarys displayed a revised timetable in the office and confirmed this verbally to exhibitors in the cob class. The class was moved to Ring 1 at 2pm. When questioned to get entry fees refunded the exhibitors were clearly told and to quote the horse show secretary:"The judge took it upon herself to change the timetable and rings back around with no communication to ourselves" They duely refunded entry fees which I am sure they wouldnt have done if THEY had been in the right.... no show wishes to lose money as I am sure you are well aware.
I am sure you can appreciate from an exhibitors point of view how this looks that the only person aware of the change by the judge is closely associated with her. Time diesal preparation all wasted!
Surely with such a close connection either pro or judge should have had the professional ethics to have not judged/not entered as the 'perception' is not good especially when entering on a seasoned horse to take the class at a local agric level show.
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Post by the showing register on Jul 12, 2015 12:14:33 GMT
Hello again
We have been in contact with the show secretary and he did post a change to the class but neither judges or the steward were informed of the change so it is hard to know where to apportion the blame ?Perhaps a communicational lapse ? Certainly not done to achieve a fixed result ! I can see you think there is a close connecton between Jill Wormall and Sarah Chapman I think we have answered in our previous post that there is no reason for Sarah not to judge Jill or the many other exhibitors that she knew well at the show. This is the problem with accepting to judge relatively locally you will know riders. I think we have also dealt with the question of if it is right to show established animals at local shows.
There were 4 cobs forward out of five entered according to both judges and the steward and as I believe you are posting on the Newport Show facebook page you can read Sarahs direct response on there.
I accept you are very upset so please ring Sarah and have a chat to clear air.
Wendy
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Post by Philippa on Jul 12, 2015 13:54:41 GMT
Well done TSR for facing this head on and acting on it even though it is from an anonymous poster. I hope the guest poster takes your advice and speaks with the judge directly, interestingly I doubt that will happen.
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Post by maxandpaddy on Jul 12, 2015 16:33:14 GMT
I agree fair does to TSR for responding on here at all, but I'd of been gutted if I'd missed my class because of 2 time changes. I'm not thinking it was done for 'facey' reasons but sometimes you feel like the big names are kept in the loop more.... I mean in regard to being kept informed
If I'd saved up to enter, plus the fuel, plus sometimes arranging childcare for our younger children and then missed our class because of TWO changes to the timetable I'd be firstly upset then later (delayed reaction with me) annoyed about it
Getting the entry fee back wouldn't cover even half of the costs involved plus the work and effort put in
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Post by the showing register on Jul 12, 2015 16:51:46 GMT
An update for Horse gossipers. To be accurate Max and paddy there was an original timetable which judges and steward had then the show secretary posted a changed timetable in the secretaries window but the judges did not know about it.
E mail regarding complaint all this info is already out on FB
Thank you for your mail. I appreciate your concern about the discrepancy with the numbers forward and as a judge we do not check or indeed have responsibility for who is in the ring and if they are entered or not. This is the job of the steward. I can only tell you that we judged 4 cobs and we did not receive a revised time table and stuck to what was in the schedule. If we had known there was a revised timetable we would have adhered to it. Nothing was changed to suit any competitor at any point. In fact Mrs Marsden and I judged form 9am until 3pm without a break and only one coffee to ensure exhibitors were not kept waiting
Your main thrust of the mail is over the issue of Jill Wormall. I have no reason not to judge her. As I am involved with TSR there are always a number of riders that I know at a show. I am not closely acquainted with Jill but she is a great supporter of TSR and the training clinics as are many other people across the showing spectrum.
As a judge I cannot stop riders exhibiting when I am officiating unless it is against the rules and in all cases everyone in the ring is treated fairly and without favour.
Perception is a very important thing and TSR are working at this time to put together with others some guidelines on the subject as it effects showing.
I believe that Newport show should be for local riders and the committee should look into this. However my co judge and I could only judge what was forward in the classes.
Even though the class was unaffiliated if you wish to put in a formal complaint to TSR and our judges complaints panel will look at the facts and gather all relevant information. As I am employed by TSR this will then be passed on to external adjudicators to ensure fairness.
I will forward the above correspondence to my co judge, steward and the show secretary so they are fully in the loop and can comment if they wish.
Best wishes
Sarah
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Post by fatcob on Jul 12, 2015 17:45:16 GMT
Newport is my favourite agri show and I always try and compete if I can. I was delighted this year that they added cobs so competed in both coloureds and cobs. I don't think agri shows should just be for amateurs. In fact sometimes when you remove the qualifying element of the class the judging can often be refreshing.
Jill Wormall told me once she has qualified her horses she couldn't see the sense or afford to keep entering Hoys qualifiers so visited lots of agri shows instead. Makes sense and some competitors argue that once you are qualified you shouldn't keep entering Hoys qualifiers so I guess you can't please everyone!
I think Newport will be horrified they have upset some competitors and hopefully will learn from this.
Me? I was second to Jill' s lovely cob and if I had been judging I would have had me second too!
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Post by Philippa on Jul 12, 2015 18:31:12 GMT
Newport is my favourite agri show and I always try and compete if I can. I was delighted this year that they added cobs so competed in both coloureds and cobs. I don't think agri shows should just be for amateurs. In fact sometimes when you remove the qualifying element of the class the judging can often be refreshing. Jill Wormall told me once she has qualified her horses she couldn't see the sense or afford to keep entering Hoys qualifiers so visited lots of agri shows instead. Makes sense and some competitors argue that once you are qualified you shouldn't keep entering Hoys qualifiers so I guess you can't please everyone! I think Newport will be horrified they have upset some competitors and hopefully will learn from this. Me? I was second to Jill' s lovely cob and if I had been judging I would have had me second too! Well said you, I am always happy to place myself below ponies which I believe are better too. Obviously it's great to beat them but I believe a true competitor accepts being beaten by better on the day.
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Post by bevcal on Jul 12, 2015 18:56:21 GMT
I don't usually comment on here just lurk a little looking at results but the thread about the the judging at Newport has really annoyed me, I helped out Francis this year by stewarding in the CHAPS classes and Judging the hunt relay and I know both judges in the cob class and can I just say that Sarah Chapman and Jean Marsden are NOT facey and always judge fairly what is in front of them, they cannot help who comes under them to be Judged and I watched the cob class and in my opnion the best one won. If there was any mix up with timings being changed it was not down to them.
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Post by newportshowfarce on Jul 12, 2015 19:16:21 GMT
First of all can I address that I am not a regular horsegossip member and not sure what the reference to 'Dear Nikki' is but can only assume this has a relevance to Facebook. I posted on here as I have followed this post re horses and faces and felt this a relevant point to make. There are obviously bones of contention here and 2 sides to every story and different perceptions and maybe otgers invokved will step forward to speak out, but I find it strange that a professional show committee would blame a judge for not adhering to a change in the schedule which they had made as surely they must be aware the potential uproar this could cause and has indeed caused!! But yes well done TSR for addressing concerns head one.... more than a lot of show societies would do.
Perhaps Fatcob as you competed in this class you would kindly confirm the numbers forward as this would appear to be in question?
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Post by fatcob on Jul 12, 2015 19:36:42 GMT
Four forward
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Post by Newport Attendee on Jul 12, 2015 19:44:39 GMT
As someone that was also at the show but not involved in this class I think it is entirely possible that neither of the cob judges knew about the new timetable and to be honest, even if they had, the show itself didn't stick to it. It was totally ridiculous and quite exhausting to know what was going to happen. You ended up hovering waiting for an announcement and to be honest they weren't very clear either.
I think there were some hugely defensive people in the secretary's box by the end of the day so things could have been said that were inappropriate and perhaps added fuel to the fire. I don't know Sarah Chapman personally but she has given up her time to judge, Jill Wormall has some lovely ponies and it is entirely possible she well deserved to win whether she knew Sarah or not.
I totally agree it is unacceptable that the class was missed but I think the fault lies at the door of the show, not the judges. There was just no clear communication. I do hope the schedule will be looked at in detail next year to get it right and I hope, dearly, that this does not sound the start of the end of a lovely agricultural show that are becoming a dying thing in some areas.
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Post by fatcob on Jul 12, 2015 19:56:17 GMT
Just to get this thread. Back on track am I right in taking the following as an opportunity to voice any concerns about judges with the powers that be. Thank you Wendy. I have already mentioned earlier in this thread that as HOYS we are always keeping an eye on trends and judges and we have in the past had to remove judges from the HOYS panel as their conduct was not what was expected of a judge at that level or any level. But very very few people are ever prepared to put their concerns or complaints in writing to me, and I will not investigate claims based on a whim or just feeling hard done by. Competitors complain anonymously often, on social media, but there needs to be some facts presented , otherwise what is there to investigate? I also do attend a few shows during the season where I can, and watch the qualifiers to see if the judging appears fair and above board, but what you see from the ringside may not be what the judge can see close up. What one person perceives as fair judging, another may feel hard done by. I think volatis is inviting competitors to contact Hoys with facts and figures. If the same names keep cropping up from different sources then surely something will be done! So come on everyone who feels strongly enough .... Get in touch!
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Post by Oh dear on Jul 12, 2015 19:59:14 GMT
Well done TSR and Sarah for answering questions posed on this thread, even though it seemed you were being badly judge bashed. Whilst I fully agree that facey judging does occur, this does not seem to be a case of that. It seems the guest moaner has facts wrong and has got quite uptight. When TSR reported that 4 out of 5 exhibitors made, you yet again said they were wrong, now confirmed you were wrong. I too thought it was the same person who had posted on the Newport show page, due to the same spelling mistakes and use of language
So in conclusion 4 out of a possible 5, made their class. A proven horse won, second reports they had no hard feelings. To be honest, it sounds as if the best horse won., but the poster has a gripe that it was "too good for the show"
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Post by bevcal on Jul 12, 2015 20:00:08 GMT
Well said Newport Attendee I didn't like the inference that there was some Facecy judging going on I judge and have stewarded for both Sarah and Jean and they are the least facey judges on the circuit and they certainly do not deserve the insinuations going on here
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Post by the showing register on Jul 13, 2015 4:57:28 GMT
I hope to finally put the subject of Newport Show to bed as this is a statement from Sarah Chapmans co judge. We really do not have time especially this week with the show coming up to spend most of a whole day refuting allegations but it is important on Social Media to make sure that all the facts are known. To keep quiet in this day and age is not an option.It has been an interesting Live case study played out on SM and very relevant to this thread if it shows up one thing it is if you want to complain you must make sure of all the facts first and refrain from rhetoric.
Reply · More · 11 hours ago Jean Marsden Let me just clarify the facts and events which took place yesterday. Following the worker classes the schedule which my co-judge, Miss S Chapman and I, were given to work to, we should have moved to ring 2 to judge class 58. We were asked to remain in the main ring and judge class 21 and 22 which followed the workers. The reasons being were time restrictions, not to have the ring empty and to get the hunt relay underway. As the only entry for class 21 had not come forward we were asked to move on to class 22. The stewards informed us that 4 out of the 5 entries were in the collection ring and it was mutually agreed that the classed should start. The class was duly judged in a fair and professional manner. After this my co-judge and I moved to ring 2 to judge as the schedule dictated. Please could I remind everyone that the organisers, stewards, judges, officials and many volunteers give up their time to make every competitor and spectator's day as enjoyable as possible. They approach this huge task with professionalism, fairness and generosity and should not be subjected to poor sportsmanship and unpleasantness. Things can and do go wrong but it not done deliberately or with malice and shame on anyone who thinks otherwise. Can I personally thank everyone for their kindness, help and generosity in making my guest and my day a happy memory.
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Post by Heard it all now! on Jul 13, 2015 8:56:49 GMT
The problem at Newport was an administrative issue! The timetabling caused some issues and communication also contributed. Everyone is entitled to enter, they pay the same entry fee. The Supreme was won by the best horse on the day and the generous prize money made the journey worthwhile! As for the ones that missed the cob class, I witnessed their extremely rude behaviour and bad language to the show officials and it was inexcusable. Their parting words about Jill Wormall were "I hope she falls off and breaks her neck", is that acceptable? Shouted loudly for everyone to hear!!? Very sad and not exactly demonstrating true sportsmanship!
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Post by sageandonionagain on Jul 13, 2015 16:53:52 GMT
You see chaps, it would be much better to address complaints privately following a proper laid down complaints procedure.
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Post by catkin on Jul 13, 2015 17:53:25 GMT
I have to say, I find this whole thing so terribly sad. Sad that a judge is being hauled through the coals for no apparant reason, sad that the show seemed to make such a mess of things and sad that fellow competitors are having to come on here and explain things. I absolutely agree we need to make things as fair as we can. I totally agree that things went wrong (or so it seems) in this case, but I cannot see why TSR and Sarah Chapman have had to explain themselves in the way they have. All credit to them for being open and honest and indeed, engaging in this debate. It would be fantastic if more 'societies' and officials did. SAD that on this occasion, it seems that they had no need to explain though.
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Post by just thinking on Jul 13, 2015 19:30:39 GMT
Would be so nice to have a thread on a positive note about judges There are fab judges out including the two ladies who have been mentioned,how awful for them to be slated like this on a public forum
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Post by Newport Too on Jul 13, 2015 20:29:36 GMT
Newport Attendee has said it all really, but IMO you absolutely cannot blame any judges for the farce that was Newport Show's Light Horse Rings. A former boss of mine, in corporate politics, one said to me that when things go wrong it is either 'c%ck-up or conspiracy' but 9 times out of 10 it's the former. He was right. On this occasion it was definitely an almighty c%ck-up by the show and not a conspiracy by judges or anyone else.
The judges did a sterling job by coping in very difficult circumstances and I'm afraid the show (dis)organisers must take full responsibility for the fact that their shambolic running of things has caused criticisms to be levelled at judges. Not only did the show completely change the running order and rings on the morning of the show itself, for no apparent reason, causing some competitors to miss classes and others to be ready up to five hours too early, but they continued to pile up the misunderstandings, changes, omissions and errors throughout the day, and were at times rude and unhelpful to competitors who were trying to fathom out what was going on. Changes were made throughout the day, announcements made and then retracted, and all the while the only reference point was a hand-drawn list sellotaped to a window. We sort of went with the flow in the end because I didn't want to upset the riders, who had been looking forward to things, but honestly, in a lifetime of showing and judging I have never been so stressed at a show or been treated so appallingly. I think it's no wonder that some competitors vented their frustrations in the wrong direction, or mistook the shambles that went across the entire light horse section, for a mishap only with their particular class.
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Post by Guestless on Jul 13, 2015 21:22:59 GMT
I cannot see why TSR and Sarah Chapman have had to explain themselves in the way they have. All credit to them for being open and honest and indeed, engaging in this debate. It would be fantastic if more 'societies' and officials did. SAD that on this occasion, it seems that they had no need to explain though. They didn't HAVE to explain anything. However, the fact that they have is a positive step IMO and one that, if more judges would adopt, would go some way to making showing more transparent and above board. Sometimes there are reasons a judge does something and (s)he has no opportunity to explain why. At least social media can provide both parties an opportunity to have their say as opposed to the chinese whispers that used to go on outside the ring where the judge had no opportunity to answer their critics
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Post by Refreshing on Jul 14, 2015 9:16:13 GMT
Couldn't agree more Guestless
Indeed the judges should not have to explain themselves but the nature of humans and the horsey world will always use conspiracy to explain certain circumstances rather than looking on the positive side (of course dodgy judges do exist so it is not always the case). I'm relativity new to the showing world and my attitude before I started showing seemed to fall in line with the outsider's point of view that showing is 'who you know', having shown this season I have managed to keep a positive attitude and have agreed with all the judges decisions, even if some of them look suspicious.
Explanations like this do help dispel the myths that seem to plague the showing world, especially from the outside, and now having read this thread I feel much more positive about the judging process being transparent and open and look forward to continuing with our showing career.
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