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Post by chops569 on Jul 14, 2015 10:13:53 GMT
I haven't shown for years and when I did always had good results so I have no personally issue with any judge. although all I see and hear via social media is the same 4 producers winning everything... Not sure how there is anything left for anyone else to win?
Yes they have nice horses - most are amazing and that is their full time job but for people who fit in producing ponies to the same standard but also work full time jobs etc etc its hardly fair competition. I am getting bored of reading updates about showing as its always the same results.
I think rules need to be stricter - Producers v producers & a class purely for HP. If you mix then fair play to you but more chances should be created for 'normal' people to compete at HOYs etc.
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Post by conniegirl on Jul 14, 2015 12:06:10 GMT
Indeed the judges should not have to explain themselves I disagree here, Judges should have to explain thier reasoning when asked. If they are fair and non facey judges then it should be easy for them to do (as has been shown here). If there is no accountability and no checks on judges then the number of corrupt ones will continue to increase.
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Post by Refreshing on Jul 14, 2015 12:37:45 GMT
Conniegirl- I agree they should when asked, what I mean is that ideally most competitors would trust that the judge made a decision based on honest values because most judges do - but of course we don't live in an ideal world!
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Post by Philippa on Jul 14, 2015 13:33:16 GMT
I haven't shown for years and when I did always had good results so I have no personally issue with any judge. although all I see and hear via social media is the same 4 producers winning everything... Not sure how there is anything left for anyone else to win? Yes they have nice horses - most are amazing and that is their full time job but for people who fit in producing ponies to the same standard but also work full time jobs etc etc its hardly fair competition. I am getting bored of reading updates about showing as its always the same results. I think rules need to be stricter - Producers v producers & a class purely for HP. If you mix then fair play to you but more chances should be created for 'normal' people to compete at HOYs etc. Im probably going to get shot down here but I actually disagree with this. I like competing against the 'big boys' and having done quite a few qualifiers already this year I am seeing producers down the line as well as up the line!!!! If you are to seperate producers & HP then you may as well just have a HP HoYs, you are devaluing yourself by wanting a split. I for one would be against the seperation.
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Post by sad competitor on Jul 14, 2015 21:53:27 GMT
its the same old same old famous weekly magazine same producers in it every week with out fail glad to see the new magazine is covering lots of venues and riders you don't have to be a producer to be added in this magazine I take my hat of to you great journal I am so pleased I don't buy the Thursday magazine anymore it have become so boring I can see what's on the pages before I even open it showing is never going to change there's always going to be a wink wink nudge nudge bad times
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Post by chops569 on Jul 16, 2015 8:20:16 GMT
I haven't shown for years and when I did always had good results so I have no personally issue with any judge. although all I see and hear via social media is the same 4 producers winning everything... Not sure how there is anything left for anyone else to win? Yes they have nice horses - most are amazing and that is their full time job but for people who fit in producing ponies to the same standard but also work full time jobs etc etc its hardly fair competition. I am getting bored of reading updates about showing as its always the same results. I think rules need to be stricter - Producers v producers & a class purely for HP. If you mix then fair play to you but more chances should be created for 'normal' people to compete at HOYs etc. Im probably going to get shot down here but I actually disagree with this. I like competing against the 'big boys' and having done quite a few qualifiers already this year I am seeing producers down the line as well as up the line!!!! If you are to seperate producers & HP then you may as well just have a HP HoYs, you are devaluing yourself by wanting a split. I for one would be against the seperation. I didnt say you shouldn't be able to go up against the 'big boys' however it is very facey out there and people who dont get paid to do ride for a living should be in with a chance of getting big titles too. Ive always gone up against the big boys and always had good results but when was the last time a home produced run of the mill, normal person won HOYs overall?
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Post by xxBBxx on Jul 16, 2015 9:12:57 GMT
its the same old same old famous weekly magazine same producers in it every week with out fail glad to see the new magazine is covering lots of venues and riders you don't have to be a producer to be added in this magazine I take my hat of to you great journal I am so pleased I don't buy the Thursday magazine anymore it have become so boring I can see what's on the pages before I even open it showing is never going to change there's always going to be a wink wink nudge nudge bad times I absolutely agree about said magazine - I have now cancelled my subscription as the showing content was soooooo predictable ...
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Post by on the fence on Jul 16, 2015 18:13:25 GMT
whats happened to good ole manners and respect from both competitors and judges.Social media has in my opinion not helped with any of our shows/judges/competitors.Years ago, we entered,paid our money, competed and congratulated the winner wether we approved or not of the placings........too many ringside judges these days.....If ALL judges took to heart all nasty comments...then would be no shows without them
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Post by CarolineNelson on Jul 16, 2015 20:13:51 GMT
whats happened to good ole manners and respect from both competitors and judges.Social media has in my opinion not helped with any of our shows/judges/competitors.Years ago, we entered,paid our money, competed and congratulated the winner wether we approved or not of the placings........too many ringside judges these days.....If ALL judges took to heart all nasty comments...then would be no shows without them "on the fence" - whoever you are, you have my heartfelt thanks and no-doubt thanks also from my colleague judges, stewards, volunteers and kind helpers at shows etc. all over! There is far too much bitterness, there are too many 'critics' - too many 'self-appointed' "judges". In a word, too many 'know-it-all's'. Whinge not. Get out there, offer your help, stand in a ring for ?? 12-13 hours in the heat, the dust, the wet, the cold and the absolutely perishing as we do - and then - and only then, put yourselves forward for assessment to be selected for your chosen 'panel'. Oh, and give up your days, weeks, and finally any chance of sleep approaching the event, to help organise and run shows just for you poor souls to attend and afterwards, whinge about a result. Gosh, we must be totally nuts. . . . . .
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Post by silvo on Jul 16, 2015 20:16:34 GMT
This is our first season of affiliated showing and our first season with our producer. Before our horse went to the yard we were warned about faciness in one of the societies we are showing under. So it's clearly an issue for the big boys too and not simply an us and them issue. I can understand why people think it's not a level playing field but I don't understand the complaints about producers knowing people. After a lifetime competing and working in the industry ofcourse they know other people who have done the same. There have been some terrible accusations on here recently which seem to be based on nothing more than personal annoyance that someone in the horse world knows someone else in the horse world. It does nothing to help genuine accusations of underhanded practises being taken seriously. I do also want to question the frequent statements that people "have been told who's going to win before the show". Why are none of you who make that claim presenting that information at the time? Why are you not writing it down and handing it in at the start of the show? If you're wrong it can go in the bin, if you're right it'll help the societies identify where they have a problem.
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Post by honeypot on Jul 16, 2015 21:33:52 GMT
This is our first season of affiliated showing and our first season with our producer. Before our horse went to the yard we were warned about faciness in one of the societies we are showing under. So it's clearly an issue for the big boys too and not simply an us and them issue. I can understand why people think it's not a level playing field but I don't understand the complaints about producers knowing people. After a lifetime competing and working in the industry ofcourse they know other people who have done the same. There have been some terrible accusations on here recently which seem to be based on nothing more than personal annoyance that someone in the horse world knows someone else in the horse world. It does nothing to help genuine accusations of underhanded practises being taken seriously. I do also want to question the frequent statements that people "have been told who's going to win before the show". Why are none of you who make that claim presenting that information at the time? Why are you not writing it down and handing it in at the start of the show? If you're wrong it can go in the bin, if you're right it'll help the societies identify where they have a problem. If only life was as simple as that. I worked for the NHS for many years and now I work for a well established organisation and in my experience even if you make a formal complaint the chances are the culture is to close ranks, cover up and make the complainant feel absolutely c*** and that's with the weight of employment laws and well established written rules and policies. When organisations charge for a service, whether it be a show committee, show society, breed society etc, they should have methods of scrutiny that prove that the methods judging are fair, unbiased for everyone it shouldn't be up to a competitor to do their job. Most of the time if you only do so many shows a year you will not have the knowledge that x is connected to y, or the pony that has been shown as a novice actually is out of the class. Its bad enough with LHC, the only bonus is that a definitive result, but how many of us have stood in the ring and thought, that's a whopper, but not followed it up. Whether people give their time for free, shouldn't be a judgement of quality, I have given my time for free to run, and help with events and when I do it I do if willingly for the pleasure it gives me. I am a great believer in, 'if you pay peanuts you get monkeys', and anyone who Judges deserves not only thanks and a lunch but remuneration, and I do not mean just expenses which some shows are really stingy about. There are very few people who have the time and money to travel the length and breadth of the country to stand in middle of a field for half of their weekend, and then spend the rest of it travelling, so the pool of judges gets smaller and dare I say older, and when you add the knowledge and objectivity they need to do the job well its no wonder that some of the results are a bit askew.
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Post by ponymad79 on Jul 17, 2015 6:51:42 GMT
I totally agree Honeypot
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Post by volatis on Jul 17, 2015 6:52:37 GMT
This is our first season of affiliated showing and our first season with our producer. Before our horse went to the yard we were warned about faciness in one of the societies we are showing under. So it's clearly an issue for the big boys too and not simply an us and them issue. I can understand why people think it's not a level playing field but I don't understand the complaints about producers knowing people. After a lifetime competing and working in the industry ofcourse they know other people who have done the same. There have been some terrible accusations on here recently which seem to be based on nothing more than personal annoyance that someone in the horse world knows someone else in the horse world. It does nothing to help genuine accusations of underhanded practises being taken seriously. I do also want to question the frequent statements that people "have been told who's going to win before the show". Why are none of you who make that claim presenting that information at the time? Why are you not writing it down and handing it in at the start of the show? If you're wrong it can go in the bin, if you're right it'll help the societies identify where they have a problem. Exactly!! Once someone has sent me the name of a pony they had been told was definitely going to win a class and it was a done deal. The pony did not win. It is easy to predict that a certain pony might do well if it is a successful pony of the type the judge is known to like, that just means it is probably a really good pony and the exhibitor has done their job well in knowing which judges will like it. However I have once looked at a list of pre entries and predicted the winners of 3 of the 4 sections. I went to the show in question to watch. My predictions were correct. That sort of judging then gets scrutinised very closely and if it keeps happening those judges may well end up getting removed from our panel.
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Post by at last on Jul 17, 2015 13:14:56 GMT
whats happened to good ole manners and respect from both competitors and judges.Social media has in my opinion not helped with any of our shows/judges/competitors.Years ago, we entered,paid our money, competed and congratulated the winner wether we approved or not of the placings........too many ringside judges these days.....If ALL judges took to heart all nasty comments...then would be no shows without them Oh Thank you for your breath of fresh air comments Yes I am judge and competed at top level for what feels like hundreds of years and spent many of my first years at the bottom of the line but I learnt my trade and gradually climbed the ladder so I know the cost of keeping horses,entry fees,horse boxes the list and expense is endless There were many times I did not agree with placings for what ever reasons,I would go back to my box,kick tyre(the ramp is too painful)and try again,another day,another show What I would never dream of doing is verbally attacking a judge in the ring or coming on social media and trying to blacken a judges name or shouting out loud my thoughts at the side of the ring I afford all competitors curtesy,whether in the ring or outside the ring No judges are not GOD but if I afford you this at all times I think you could at least do the same. Yes I am a very mature Judge but I have not lost my marbles YET :)Happy Showing
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Post by Horsecrazy01 on Jul 17, 2015 14:42:58 GMT
Wow, what a response from this thread, thank you to everyone for sharing comments and keeping it to a friendly post. I have seen a lot of people having their ponies produced this season - some even swapping and changing producers to suit the judge Which I find quite frustrating and also proves we do unfortunately have a valid point when it comes to 'some' of the judges. We need this sport to be fair for everyone and in my eyes the only reason people should choose to have an animal produced should be due to their expertise and experience NOT because their animal needs a FACE to be deemed a winner/quality.
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Post by gillwales on Jul 17, 2015 17:32:17 GMT
I have read this thread with a mixture of interest and dismay.
How many of the people who have complained on this thread attended their Society's AGM and raised their concerns? I used to try to attend at least one of the societies that I was a member of each year.
For those of you that have sited specific shows and classes, why have you not written a compaliant to the Society involved? Judges have been struck off or suspended from a list when found not to be complying with the rules. If you have not then you should be quaking in your boots right now, posting as a guest will not protect you from being taken to court. Bullying is being frowned on these days so it might not just be a civil case you are facing.
When when when will the ringside judges understand that there are FAR worse faults than the wrong lead in canter? Especially in a childs class where the incorrect aide might have been given. I guess it is because it is something even numpties can see, whereas they do not have the knowledge to spot faults far worse, such as on the forehand, not tracking up, falling on on a corner, resisting the bit... I could keep going on but I have diner to serve!
So pleased I no longer bother to spend my spare time judging.
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Post by noah2013 on Jul 17, 2015 19:39:55 GMT
I think between face judging judges and producers - they have just about spoilt it for the true amateur showing enthusiast ! (You know the ones that work a full week, using their holiday days for showing ponies, spending every last penny to keep up with the producers)
Look at the number of ponies entered in certain in-hand classes - Riding Pony & Hunter pony breeding classing in particular... 4 and 5 in most - with very few show bucking the trend .... Some shows have even done away with SHP classes..... The in M&M classes where the true amateur classes, but the producers have even started to take them over !!!
How many stories do read in the Nag & Dog, about how a producer has taken over the lead of pony / horse in the cuddy's because the original handler has suddenly become un-well / injured ......
No wonder people get dishearten and sell up or move to showjumping - where you the master of your own destiny ......
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Post by viking on Jul 17, 2015 20:13:49 GMT
Oh for goodness sake ! Can someone not set fire to this thread?
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Post by maxandpaddy on Jul 17, 2015 20:35:30 GMT
Spot the difference between the tinsel and the gold viking
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Post by Ribbon Fever on Jul 18, 2015 6:38:18 GMT
I no longer show but before I decided to give it a break I had been showing ponies for many many years. At the end of the day no amount of moaning on sites like this or places like FB will stop face showing, the use of social media could now enhance the situation. Like any sport or hobby, you will get those who will climb the ladder through either favours or have deep pockets to pay their way by employing a producer or sponsorship for example, some will get through by sheer determination on their own merits. Showing is like one big family, when the top prizes are awarded, yes they're mainly claimed by a producer or his/her's family member towhich the majority sit on both society councils and judging panels. It's human nature, if your planning a journey from A to B, we all want to get to our destination by the shortest route. When it comes to putting a complaint in to any society, most competitors either can't afford to do it (as showing takes them over and beyond their yearly budget in the first place)or they're afraid as being labelled a trouble maker (green eyed monster). I think that there should be at least two non showing representatives on each council to be independent reviewers to oversee that all complaints are taken seriously and treated fairly. People go on about "judge bashing", well maybe the competitor who dares complain is also fed up with being labelled. Since I first started showing, times have certainly moved on with the help or not so helpful world of computers, mobile phones and their message services, phone cameras and videos. Communication between people is on tap 24/7, gone are the days of going to a show and waiting to get home before a telephone call can be made to friends and family to either celebrate a win or moan about your day. Everyone within showing needs a wake up call so to speak, showing societies, show organisers, judges, producers, home produced, all competitiors. Blatent cheating, unfair judging, rudness to officials, anything deemed unacceptable by some can be caught on camera phones or moaned about on forums. On the other foot celebrations can be celebrated on forums, places like FB, but be careful who your letting into your world to read and form an opinion about you. In truth how well do you know your FB friends or do you befriend people because you think it may help your cause? The majority of people don't have the cash to throw at showing just to keep the few privilaged at the top of their game, eventually they will tire of all the negatives. I know of lots of people who have walked away from showing over the years but having said that as some walk a new person and family will take their chance and give showing ago. The days have gone - The Judges Decision Is Final and people are expected to accept that as a done deed. If a competitor wants to hear an explanation why a certain result has taken place, then the judge should willingly explain. As we all know, we enter the ring for the judges opinion, this should be a two way street for all. At the end of a days showing, we ALL take the best pony/horse home. On the whole showing is a lovely way to introduce young children to art of riding and handling ponies. Please stop if you are a facey judge, open your eyes be brave and put the best pony, horse or rider up the line regardless of who is on board or leading it. Stop being fooled into believing the producers have the best of the best, because that is impossible considering the number of equines competing. The facey judges know who they are, just think on do you want showing to be embraced and continue for generations to come or do you want to ruin it forever? As for the honest genuine judges out there, let me applaud and congratulate you for being fair to all. Showing is addictive, some of you will contiue to live the dream, some of you may give it a break for a while before returning, some will give it up forever. Showing should be promoted fairly for all to enjoy.
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Post by fatcob on Jul 18, 2015 7:00:32 GMT
Well said Ribbon Fever.
Th fact is that poor judging ( facey or otherwise) no longer goes unnoticed or ignored... social media has its powers and they CAN be used to positively change things for the better.
It is good to hear that some panels do watch and monitor the results for this... hopefully one day it will be a thing of the past.
Sadly in the meantime we see some of the same bad eggs getting away with tit for tat judging again and again, they could well read this thread and think "who me?" they have gone so far down the line of selfish self serving judging that they believe their own lies, and yet time and again the same names crop up. Eventually someone snaps and says something they shouldn't and because they are so exasperated by the apparent inaction of the relevant committees they most likely pick on a situation that is within the rules ( however stretched)to vent their frustration.
Choose your battles carefully otherwise these threads will soon be about "moaning losers".
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Post by viking on Jul 18, 2015 8:43:18 GMT
Choose your battles carefully otherwise these threads will soon be about "moaning losers".
Very true words fat cob.
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Post by chipmokey on Jul 18, 2015 16:30:18 GMT
It is clear from the volume of postings on this topic that there is a problem here. I am interested to see postings from Robert P-J and Caroline Nelson because their names must be the most frequently mentioned when it comes to fair judging and all credit to them. We have had some of our best results when they have been judging. At the other end of the judging scale it is unfortunate that we are unable to name names when referring to our facey judging experiences as I believe that the same few names would be crop up regularly. The problem is it is almost impossible to prove and those who rightly raise the issue are accused of sour grapes or unsporting behaviour. There can't be many of us who haven't witnessed a range of shows from excellent to bad only for the judges to award marks solely on how the class was originally pulled with no changes to the original line up.
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Post by thatboythatgirl on Jul 18, 2015 20:13:57 GMT
There are facey judges out there I think people are kidding themselves if they say otherwise! it's not just at top level either where so and so knows them if anything its worse at your local riding club just the stage isn't so big!
The first year maxis went to HOYS I was in a qual and before going someone told me the judge was bent, and said xyz wpuld win, horse didn't go well yet still won! My horse got.judged at 2 diff shows by the same judge that weekend and he didn't hide the fact that he was last because he'd bolted with him the day before after getting spooked which I think peeed me off more as it gave the impression that the class wasn't being judged on the day! I've been in the ring also when a pro has been suprised when they won a class when their horae has gone terrible.
But then the comeplete opposite with our pony, we are completely HP (even though folk think we are not which I think shows hard works pays off! He qualified for the RIHS after stopping in the middle of his show against many a producer with previous HOYS ponies,the pony was good enough and bar that one blip went foot perfect I for one was shocked by the final result so i imagine people had a moan to each other bit it was nice to see a judge not a d**n a pony for a small mistake when he goes beautifully with good conformation
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Post by sjw87 on Jul 19, 2015 10:13:47 GMT
Just commenting with another thread on here in mind (the one regarding obese horses and ponies):
As judges are encouraged to put obese horses down the line or put child's ponies with strong bits down, if there is no explanation as to why they have been dropped, how is it ever going to help improve things?
If a judge puts a good but obese horse at the bottom of the line, are the owners going to realise that's why they aren't at the top or are they just going to accuse the judge of being facey/unfair?
It does come back to a point made earlier where owners/riders might not take the comments well but if the truth is not told, the recommendation of putting them down the line is surely pointless.
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sarahp
Happy to help
Posts: 9,510
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Post by sarahp on Jul 19, 2015 10:25:00 GMT
Having been pulled in second in a big class with an overweight pony some years and then moved to the bottom, I didn't for a minute think it was facey/unfair judging, just a judge taking notice of not placing fat ponies! Mind you, I'd have thought he'd been able to see that before he lined us up, at least I knew he liked the pony really!
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Post by sjw87 on Jul 19, 2015 10:28:43 GMT
The difference is, you were aware your pony was overweight. A lot of people are oblivious to it and would fail to realise that it may be the reason why they have been dropped
Sent from my GT-I9195 using proboards
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Post by Oh Dear!! on Jul 19, 2015 10:28:45 GMT
Facey Judging = TSR Show Ponies Today ...... Thats all I have to say
Wrong Legs on both legs, Bucks and ponies generally not going forward getting placed
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Post by gillwales on Jul 19, 2015 11:33:35 GMT
Facey Judging = TSR Show Ponies Today ...... Thats all I have to say Wrong Legs on both legs, Bucks and ponies generally not going forward getting placed So did you write a complaint to the Soiety involved?
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Post by Tsr judging today on Jul 19, 2015 12:07:03 GMT
Totally agree with the facey tsr judging today the winner of the 14.2 class would not stand for the judge its front legs left the floor then did 2 wrong legs but still won the class
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