dizzy
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Posts: 417
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Post by dizzy on Nov 12, 2006 19:24:48 GMT
Thanks for the karma dl much appreciated
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Post by HackFan3 on Nov 12, 2006 19:27:45 GMT
I'm really sorry to change the subject for a second But can a guest give a member a Karma and if so, how?
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dizzy
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Posts: 417
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Post by dizzy on Nov 12, 2006 19:41:04 GMT
dont think so
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dizzy
Full Member
Posts: 417
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Post by dizzy on Nov 12, 2006 19:42:21 GMT
just lost another one never mind
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Post by roast beef on Nov 12, 2006 19:56:04 GMT
perhaps we should split the lead rein classes?!! One for children who can ride and do FR as well and another for those up to 9 years who are keen but genuine lead rein. My daughter was hugely tall when she did LR but as I had acquired her and she hadn't ridden before LR was the best class for her, she loved it especially all those pink rosettes but you do get some funny looks!! So give it a rest and lets have some common sense and another karma for Dizzy!!
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Post by princess on Nov 12, 2006 20:21:00 GMT
My daughter does the LR with her dad and loves it! She lost her confidence after a fall a while back but at 4yrs she was doing beginners first riddens because she wanted to be a "big girl". I see no problem with Lr jockeys doing first riddens as long as they are happy and the pony is safe. As for lr jockeys doing all the work and riding the pony with minimal help from the handler fair enough, but i also don't see what is wrong with the pony being set up and knowing its job and the child to be a passenger, especially if they are nervous! Encouraging children to ride and be future enthusiasts of the sport is what its all about!
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dizzy
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Posts: 417
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Post by dizzy on Nov 12, 2006 20:23:08 GMT
Thanks roast beef, I personally am not bothered by the size of kids in lead rein classes especially when it is giving them invaluable ring experience, we used lead rein to teach my daughter some ring craft and by talking her through things on the way round (with her stearing) has certainly contributed to her being the rider she is today. I worry when I see little dots doing 1st ridden with wilkie bits pulling on their poor ponies mouths with no concept of the discomfort they are causing they may look cute but wat about the poor ponies. children need to be of a certain age before they can understand fully what riding is all about and that is why I would do the same again
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lemmie
Junior Member
Posts: 100
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Post by lemmie on Nov 12, 2006 20:56:11 GMT
My daughter does the LR with her dad and loves it! She lost her confidence after a fall a while back but at 4yrs she was doing beginners first riddens because she wanted to be a "big girl". I see no problem with Lr jockeys doing first riddens as long as they are happy and the pony is safe. As for lr jockeys doing all the work and riding the pony with minimal help from the handler fair enough, but i also don't see what is wrong with the pony being set up and knowing its job and the child to be a passenger, especially if they are nervous! Encouraging children to ride and be future enthusiasts of the sport is what its all about! I agree very much with what Princess is saying. LR is used as a way to introduce the next generation to the showing world - everyone has to start somewhere! Ok maybe some of the riders in LR classes just seem to be a passenger .... but atleast they are starting somewhere. I think the issue comes when you get children at the top end of the age limit who are merely being passengers. Yes it is sometimes necessary for children to stay on the LR to gain confidence - however at 7/8 years old they should start learning to do it by themselves. This I believe is the reason FR classes are introduced to allow the children the next step up. The same as it is with the teenagers who get ISHT and ISRT classes. I personally cannot stand wilkies on LR's and dont really enjoy seing them on FR's either. Sometimes they are necessary if you have a baby going into their first few novice classes - jsut for that extra bit of breakage. However when you see them on LR and FR's who's heads are nearly between their back legs they are so overbent! I also have heard of people who have told their children to jab the ponies in their mouths if they shake their heads - this is unacceptable and just a plain snaffle but the wilkie has that bit more power and leverage and people are encouraging there children to this! It is outrageous! Hopefully my above points will conclude to the following (fingers crossed). LR jockeys should be allowed to act as passengers, however once they start getting to the top of the age limit then they should venture into FR and actually learn to ride properly, having had the experience of ring craft in LR. I think it is lovely to see schoolmasters in LR and FR classes showing the jockeys around - rather than "worked in since 12 the previous night till the time of class in order to make it safe" ponies careering round the ring in wilkie snaffles!
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dizzy
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Posts: 417
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Post by dizzy on Nov 12, 2006 21:04:16 GMT
Well said Mel Ive given u a karma
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Post by Got no rider on Nov 12, 2006 22:15:52 GMT
Big queston ARE YOU RICH ???Ia lovely willing little girl who wants a fyfr pony if anyone knows of any for loan or going cheap as she wont part with her leadrein pony who is all of above ,but we just can't get the canter fluent with a tiny rider any suggestions ANYONE ? No I'm not rich unfortunately
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Post by Guestless on Nov 12, 2006 23:09:44 GMT
This thread could go on and on .......So i am just going to count myself lucky that i have a true lead rein pony who carries my son safely and who i can trust 110% when in the ring!He knows his job when in the ring but also hacks out at home and i know that my son is safe!!! Yup, but it is good to have debate and thanks everyone for not getting too heated. I agree with you Sammie about having a pony that is totally safe (although it is not actually possible to have one that is 110% ) I would reiterate that I wouldn't necessarily expect a 3 or 4 year old to be a world class jockey, but I would still like to see them doing some of the riding - for me it's the combination (as in pony and jockey) that wins a class and not just the pony. I can understand where you are coming from with regard to experienced children doing LR and then FR too - but as the rules stand, there is nothing to stop them from doing so. And it's not quite as bad as the fact ponies that have qualified for HOYS and/or Olympia can go and do novice BSPS classes the following year!
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Post by Sammie on Nov 13, 2006 9:23:26 GMT
Thanks Princess and Lemmie you have stated the same as me its just a shame no one else seemed to see where i was coming from!!!The whole point of lead rein is to ENCOURAGE children to ride and enjoy themselves. On the subject of wilkies many childrens lead rein and first ridden ponies are now wearing them if you look at a hoys class of 40 ponies 35 will be wearing wilkies but yet again it is all down to personal preference!
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Post by Guest today on Nov 13, 2006 11:27:03 GMT
So Lemmie what about the children who start their showing careers in the ring at the top end of the age limit. Not everyone starts at 3 or 4, do we deny them the opportunity to gain confidence in lead rein and force them to cope on their own in first riddens? That would be the classic way of undermining a childs confidence on a pony and could well put them off riding for life.
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Post by prudence on Nov 13, 2006 12:00:59 GMT
I agree with you guest today my son did not want to ride until he was 7 and he was a tall child for his age, however after several weeks of riding our very old pony we started looking for a LR/FR pony for him, he did 1 season on the LR he started off by holding the saddle but finished the season Champion at Moreton In Marsh and a write up in Horse and Hound and his ticket to HOYS. it was a hard learning curve and one judge asked why such a big boy was still on the LR and he told her i have only just started riding. The moral of this story is you cant force children to ride but when they show an intrest you encourage them all the way we searched long and hard for the right pony safe but good enough to do the county circit as we show most weekends with our daughter so no point getting a pony that could not hold its own, Paul chose the pony hisself after trying 10 plus ponies i was ready to give up but he knew when he felt safe and what a great choice he made. So anybody out there with an older child dont be put off it is down to each familt to decide what is best for their children and no one has any right to put a child down if they are ubder 9 they are entitled to ride in the class.
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Post by prudence on Nov 13, 2006 12:21:01 GMT
Overbent I think people realise that you were replying to the nasty comment made by Sammy about 8 and 9 year old children well my son had turned 8 when he won at Moretonand he and his pony looked fantastic and won a class of 24 including some real good ponies and producers so that proves she is talking rubbish
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Post by julie on Nov 13, 2006 12:25:23 GMT
On a lighter note: anyone who has done LR or is doing LR must order a copy of Caroline Arkill's Not Quite A Horsewoman for essential, hysterical reading. Leave the pony in the field, park the child in front of the TV, go to bed with a drink and enjoy!
And can we vote on best Lead Rein Outfit? Saw a lovely pale turquoise blue/tweed outfit at Royal London on a svelte blonde (size 10). She gets my vote, only marginally clear of Jocelyn Price.
PS Have you ever really seen a top LR combination where the leader is normal sized? (ie 16) Nope, they are beautiful blondes for the most part!! Where do they all come from? This must be against some EEC ruling......
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Post by princess on Nov 13, 2006 12:40:57 GMT
Overbent I think people realise that you were replying to the nasty comment made by Sammy about 8 and 9 year old children well my son had turned 8 when he won at Moretonand he and his pony looked fantastic and won a class of 24 including some real good ponies and producers so that proves she is talking rubbish I really don't think she meant to cause offence! I think basically what sammie was saying is that some 8 and 9 yr olds are extrememly competent on the lr and then go on to do novice and open first riddens! I myself have no problem with that as my 6yr old will be doing lr until she is 9 regardless as to whether she is doing first riddens or not! unfortunately the overall picture is important, my daughter at 11yrs was very tall and in first riddens she was put down a lot because she was one of the tallest jockeys in the class! in my mind this is unfair as she was in the correct age limit but other 11yr olds were smaller and the picture looked better! In lr the overall picture is also taken into consideration! I have had comments of judges that my 6yr old looks too small on our sec A and other judges have placed us highly! At the end of the day children need to be introduced to the show ring whether they are 3 or 9! I like lemmie would expect an experienced child at 8 and 9 to do more work as this helps with the next step!
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Post by prudence on Nov 13, 2006 14:09:46 GMT
Princess there was no mention of experienced children in Sammys statement she was saying 8 or 9 year old children looked ridicules in LR classes, and that is what people object to if a child is only starting to ride at 8 or 9 what right has she to say such things it is disgraceful. In an ideal world all the LR children would be small and confident and the overall picture would be very nice but that is not so in many cases, but there are lots of breeds of pony to suit different requirements and we found a good dartmoor that would have looked silly with a tiny tot on board.
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darme
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Post by darme on Nov 13, 2006 15:10:39 GMT
has anybody actually tried explaining the sceience of riding to a 3-4-5-year old child , not easy !!!so how can they be expected to do all the work themselves ??, ASfor most being stunning blondes , I've seen some real sights and thats just the men leaders . come on some kids make it off the lead and some don't let every dog have its day
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Post by princess on Nov 13, 2006 15:56:22 GMT
Prudence I agree with you actually as I explained about my eldest daughter looking big in first riddens! Unfortunately though overall picture is important and there is no way of getting away from that.
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Post by Sammie on Nov 13, 2006 16:05:27 GMT
I think some of you have misunderstood me, i am allowed my own opinion and i did say''in MY opinion i think some 8 or 9 year old children look ridiculous''.
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dizzy
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Posts: 417
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Post by dizzy on Nov 13, 2006 17:26:46 GMT
Sammie you are entitled to your opinion the point being the rest of us dont have to agree with it. We were relatively lucky that my daughter was still quite small at 9yrs so thankfully she didnt look RIDICULOUS. not all kids are born in the saddle and dont start riding till 8 or 9, or have the perfect pony as you obviously do.
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Post by BouncyBouncy on Nov 13, 2006 17:37:40 GMT
I am not bothered by the age of a child in a lead rein class, makes no diference if they are 3 or 8 or 9, that is what age the class is designed for. Yes these classes are practice for the child for when it's capable of going onto first ridden, but it shouldn't be somewhere to practice riding, do that at home. I think it looks terrible when you see kids that obviously don't do much learning at home as from one year to the next they are still holding onto the front of the saddle and still not rising to the trot. At least teach them the basics and practice at home, don't just chuck them in the ring and hope that looking pretty is all it takes to win a lead rein class, although that is sometimes the case. A 3 year old child can rise the trot, a 3 year old child doesn't have to hold the front of the saddle and not the reins, there are plenty of 3 year olds in lead rein classes proving this. There is no excuse for the ones that can't, they just need to practice and the showring is a showing class not a riding lesson.
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Post by BouncyBouncy on Nov 13, 2006 17:42:38 GMT
Forget to say, I also don't think GAGS (oops I mean Wilkies lol) should be seen in lead rein, first ridden of novice classes.
Wouldn't it be good if we could all design a bit and call it a snaffle regardless of what it really is.
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Post by sallyw on Nov 13, 2006 17:43:07 GMT
Well, lead reins have excited a lot of comment. One thing I don't like is to see gelding going round in the l/r class with their willy hanging round their hocks - which clearly indicates an interesting breakfast. I don't know how you tell if mares have been doped. Personally, I think its better the child holds the saddle than they fall off. We lunge our pony at the big shows for about ten minutes max - the pony is in her very first season - I would not expect to do it next year. The rider is six and holds on sometimes and sometimes not in trot, but not in walk - and yes, I have taught the pony to go to voice commands so that if the rider gets it wrong we do not make a complete fool of ourselves. I am beginning to think that this class is the most hotly contested one and so I guess it is bound to cause some controversy.
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lemmie
Junior Member
Posts: 100
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Post by lemmie on Nov 13, 2006 18:37:13 GMT
Somebody earlier commented about how do I feel about children at the top of the age range going in LR classes to gain experience as they are new to showing. I don't think I made myself as clear as I would have liked. It is perfectly acceptable for an older child to go in LR to gain experience, however this does not mean that they continue campaigning in that class for a season and longer .... if that makes sense ALso if you do see a child in LR at the top of the age range you would expect them to have a few more of the basics as they would be easier to teach than a 4 year old in effect. Hope the above makes sense.
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all the gear and no idaea
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Post by all the gear and no idaea on Nov 13, 2006 19:06:20 GMT
I am presuming when you started competing although your daughter was balanced enough to stay on she still would not of been confident to go off the lead!I have a son who is now six and just things like holding the reins are difficult for children!All i am trying to say is if your child can ride ok then do first ridden a lead rein class in my eyes is to teach your child so he/she gains confidence and ability to progress.If i was judging a class and saw a child quite capable i would assume they were in the wrong class!!! Well i do apologise if didnt quite take what you wrote in the correct way.....BUT...IMO....if you are eligable to enter ANY class....then why shouldnt you???be it lead rein or not......and what got my back up is that you are a so called judge and would assume they were in the wrong class....I DONT THINK SO.....if they are eligable to be in that class then so what.....just because the pony presented before you is going very nicely indeed...you think the child shouldnt be in that class because they ride well.... STILL BAFFLED TO YOUR OPINIONS....DEAR JUDGE!!!!!!!!!!!
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hackety
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Elegant and light in the hand!
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Post by hackety on Nov 13, 2006 20:40:31 GMT
Don't think I am being controversial here but then again you never know!
I think that it is the judges place to judge the ponies that come before them on the day. I would not feel that it is appropriate to question whether a child should or should not be in a particular class unless of course there is a safety issue. There has to be an age limit and there will always be the more experienced/capable children at the threshold who will win over younger ones, but the newcomers will have their chance too. At the end of the day the class is for the suitability of the pony not the jockey's riding ability.
I would also be very wary about expecting an older child to ride better as we cannot be expected to know when a child started having lessons or how their confidence and ability is developing. We engage lead rein jockeys in a small amount of conversation to make them feel relaxed and not intimidated by the judge so that hopefully they continue through our mad showing world, but we cannot give them a full scale spanish inquisition in order to assess their knowledge, ability and natural talent.
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Post by Guest today on Nov 13, 2006 21:49:29 GMT
Lemmie No i'm afraid you don't make any sense. Sigh.......... Let me spell it out for you . Child A comes from a horsey family ( or very pushy parents) and is a seasoned campainger in lead rein classes from the age of 3. Child B doesn't start riding and competing untill they are 7 or 8 tell me why they should be frowned upon if they compete in lead rein classes and just because they are older doesn't mean they are anymore competent. Why shouldn't they compete in these classes right up to the last day of eligability if they are entitled to?
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lemmie
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Post by lemmie on Nov 13, 2006 22:42:49 GMT
Greatest apologies Guest Today - I think my work load is getting to me! lol I am *hopefully* not trying to say that Child B should be frowned upon, what I am however trying to say is that if CHild A where to exploit there elegibility to campaign in LeadRein despite being fully able to do FR then (and only then) should it maybe be frowned on. It should be allowed as those are the rules, however it should be up to the competitor to put their child in the class which they think is fair and not just in the one where they will win the 1st place rosette. Hope that makes sense ... if it doesnt then don't hesitate to spell it out for me
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