JMB on HG - thread 2

[wornthetshirt]

Aug 21, 2009 8:50:16 GMT Guestless said:

Aug 21, 2009 7:14:31 GMT Rockstar said:

Yes Fly was measured in Essex this year. He actually re-measured 0.5cm smaller than in January!

Which goes to show you don't need to have an up-to-height horse to be successful....I really wish people would learn from this and stop taking so many chances.

G, Oh,how I agree with you! And, this is a quality, very typey animal.

[overatdaknee]

There are definately some racing ponies on that list which I am pretty sure do not do BSPS classes too, also hacks and cobs on there as well.

[coxwood]

I have to say having competed in sp's / shp 's for many years with my daughters I for one am glad that at last this issue is being addressed everyone who has competed in these classes knows that overheight ponies have been competing but lets face it most of us have neither the time or money to contest it and probably a little nervous of taking on the system . Occassionally you would here of a pony being measured out sometimes after winning hoys etc but it was gone and forgotton before the start of the next season . A bigger pony will have a longer stride and fill eye and therefore stand out . We had a top class 143cm shp who was bang on but let me say he was a midget and it was excepted that to compete in that class you needed a pony that was 14'2 . If you regularly do the circuit it is common knowledge which ponies are near to the mark , hopefully it will do away with this constant need to have a pony that is upto height and we can just have good ponies .

Just wanted to add I think in the past buying a pony with a height certificate was sufficient because even if it was " full up " it had been measured and height certificates were very very rarely contested especially the old LHC so you had no need to worry . The problem now is that any pony once it has been measured can be called for re measuring so I think from a buyers point of view a height certificate is worthless unless of course the pony is well under can't help thinking that this will devalue alot of ponies that are near to their height limit because it is such a risk to pay out for pony that might go over .

[lewis1804]

As the rules stand at the moment if you measure a pony at the start of the year can you then take it back and measure it again in the same year?

Without being objected to i didnt think you could so your hands would be tied if you had a four year old measured and then you thought it had grown.

[tuppence]

I still think that allowing mid-season objections makes it too easy for competitors to strategically object and remove a pony from a class just before a major show. I think a bit of this may have gone on in the cobs but I haven't noticed it in Hacks (those hacks that have been re-measured also do ISRT).

I think they should re-measure all the first placed horses/ponies (in height restricted classes) at HOYS plus a random selection of 15 others. The re-measurement should have to take place within 21 days of HOYS - to stop people measuring the horses really poor and unfit.
Most producers want to win their classes at HOYS. If they knew for a fact the animal would get re-measured I think they would be very careful to make sure it was being shown in the right class.

[howrse]

By the looks of this thread im one of the few that has signed this petition but then i do show young horses and young horses do grow, thats the whole point of annual certs!! If JMB are going to re call annual certs then that surely means they are not worth the paper they are written on, (not icluding the cost to the owner) after all whats the point of measuring annually if its not to allow growth of young horsres during the year. In this case should we not show horses until they are fully grown at 7???

[tuppence]

Aug 21, 2009 11:05:35 GMT howrse said:

In this case should we not show horses until they are fully grown at 7???

Yes, I said that yesterday.
Personally I don't think they really do grow 4cm in a year and I don't think it makes that much difference to their relaxed height if they are unfit or fit.

However, an annual height certificate should cover you for a whole year.

[howrse]

I agree perhaps they dont grow 4cms but could easily grow 2cms! It just seems a huge waste of time money and energy. If the referees do think animals with annual certs have grown over then stipulate where they measure the following Jan, perhaps under objection but the owners have paid their money for that year!

[sageandonion]

If buying a horse/pony specifically for a height class, then it is absolutely essential a buyer has that equine measured before purchase and that really is just common sense. When buying a pony for dressage, for example, I ask the vet to pay particular attention to the hocks and with the slightest doubt I would have X-rays, further clinical checks etc.

Lots of horses, particularly irish or continental warmbloods will be offered for sale with a vet's certificate. Well very nice, but you still have to get your own vetting done or 'take a risk'.

Let's be honest, most of us know what a particular height looks like. I purchased a 'measured out' pony and the seller had purchased this pony without having either a vetting or a remeasurement which is rather strange when these animals cost so much to buy and keep. Whilst I expected him to look a bit on the big side, I believe my first exclaimation on viewing was "oh my god, that is huge!", this when he had his head down, relaxed and chewing his hay and before growing another hand when ridden.

[sageandonion]

Also as I do not follow all the classes, I wonder does anyone know which/how many/what percentage of the equines being remeasured have measured in or out and maybe what number of those were the Essex vet? You cannot actually see how big/small the problem is without knowing the previous height.

[agent]

Aug 20, 2009 20:09:01 GMT @tuppence said:

I have a subject for hypothetical discussion.

I have a 3 yo Hack that looks like it's going to be a small. However, both parents were 158cm. If I take her to be measured next January and she measures 154cm I can legally show her as a Small Hack. Should she go well, there is a small chance she could qualify for HOYS. If someone objects to her in August I will have to get her re-measured. In the intervening 7 months she could well have grown over 154cm and so measure out.

Have I done something wrong?
Do I lose my HOYS qualification just because I have a young (and therefore growing) horse?
If the answers is yes - she has grown over over and so can not be shown at HOYS, then surely we can't really show any horse until it has stopped growing?

Until the rules of whichever society you are showing under change their rules to read for example "not exceeding 122cm at 1st January in the current year" then surely if your hack is not within the height limits of the class on the day, it should not be in there.!

And it is surely not rocket science, if the rules are not changed, to alter the qualified ponies in this day and age!

[agent]

Perhaps a thread could be started that named those ponies that appear to be too big - at least those purchasing ponies will have an idea (if they didn't have already) that they were taking a chance and that they would seek expert advice from a vet at a measuring pad, as to its current height.

As said before, it doesn't take very long for people to get used to the idea that it is not a sensible idea to sail too close to the wind. After all the eventers and show jumpers have

[diana]

Agent-starting a thread giving names of ponies that “appearing big” would be most unfair. Putting a ponies name on here just because it “looks” big. It would forever smear the name of any achievements by any pony and would cause alot of hurt to connections of a named pony especially as there is no proof of it being over the height.

Publish the name only if it goes over...

If these owners are so unaware that their ponies may be overheight then why not measure it before they buy? Most yards own a measuring stick or one can always be borrowed .I would never buy a horse without measuring it myself. It may not be an exact measurement but if its going over at least they would know.

[ladybird]

oh how i wish for the days when i was young when none of this would have mattered...

[sageandonion]

Bless you Ladybird, wish I had one of those karma thingys and I would give it to you, you have made me smile.

[4emms]

IMO Colourful & Sageandonion, your comments make sense. If I was to pay the sort of money a horse of that quality commands I would be having a full vetting, and a height check would be included. And as someone else said - if the class on the day states "not exceeding xxx.." and you present your horse, which is over height on the day, then it should be disqualified, even with an annual cert, because it does not meet the organisers' rules. Maybe it would be sufficient to ensure that it isn't presented for measuring 'let down' too much to cover yourself for subsequent growth?

An animal does not need to be upto height to be the best example - judges can start to place 'smaller packages' in classes. This would help future standards too, can you imagine trying to breed a quality animal when all that would be available with a performance record is already at the top of its height limit/breed standard? Would it mean that eventually the type is lost or height limit for breeds needs to be raised? At least with lots of quality/performance within a range of heights you can breed for other qualities and look to cross with smaller animals without fear of losing sale value.

[dalton]

I agree, there is too much emphisis on' type' a show pony is a show pony regardless of its height and any good pony shown within the height range should be judged for its merit, the desire to have the biggest pony in the class has allowed the type to be altered over the years.Maybe it is time for the type to revert back to when the best pony in the class won, i.e Pretty Polly -14hds hoys 1950, 1951/ runnings park hill star hoys 1982 not mention last years 148 winner Rhos emblem which is well under height! It is up to the producer,whether proffessional or otherwise, to ensure that the pony is looking good and going right. All the owners/producers of overheight ponies should dig deep into their conciences and do the right thing or face the music

[wisdom]

Aug 21, 2009 15:55:17 GMT dalton said:

It is up to the producer,whether proffessional or otherwise, to ensure that the pony is looking good and going right. All the owners/producers of overheight ponies should dig deep into their conciences and do the right thing or face the music

I totally agree, I imagine there will be a few worried owners/producers next week at the champs - as there are still some obviously over height ponies competing.

IMHO regardless of which producer clients use, or indeed home produced ponies, an over height pony is an over height pony and there should be no special allowances for anyone. (Even if they do think they deserve special treatment)

[wornthetshirt]

Aug 21, 2009 16:29:26 GMT wisdom said:

Aug 21, 2009 15:55:17 GMT dalton said:

It is up to the producer,whether proffessional or otherwise, to ensure that the pony is looking good and going right. All the owners/producers of overheight ponies should dig deep into their conciences and do the right thing or face the music

I totally agree, I imagine there will be a few worried owners/producers next week at the champs - as there are still some obviously over height ponies competing.

IMHO regardless of which producer clients use, or indeed home produced ponies, an over height pony is an over height pony and there should be no special allowances for anyone. (Even if they do think they deserve special treatment)

[/b]

Wisdom, I do so agree with you.
No-one should 'deserve special treatment', nor get it.

[sugarcube19]

Does anyone think there will be any measuring done at the champs?

[wisdom]

I have heard open shp maybe measured, but this was probably only hearsay

[jellybabe]

i think there should be a discussion

[wornthetshirt]

Wisdom, I'd heard something along those lines, but for a different section.

Probably heresay - you know what rumours are!!

[blogger]

I'd heard that all the HOYS qualifying classes were being measured







.......... Sorry I made that up Just wishful thinking!

[sugarcube19]

I hope they do measure the HOY's classes, not to be spiteful, but just to put some off going in. I know i am straying off the point of measuring a little, but lot's of ponies that have already qualified did the classes last year and in at least 1 class the top 5 ponies had qualified and this meant no one took the ticket. Sad in my opinion.

[jellybabe]

gossip is that there is an official goinig about asking to be informed about overheight ponies they will then get them pulled no questions asked no monies to change hands
any one got any idea who this is or can supply more information

[halfpass]

Aug 23, 2009 22:32:43 GMT superstar said:

also if the jmb did their job properly there would be no need for this sort of action by society's such as the bsps!

If people did not try to sqeeze a big'un under there would be no need for the JMB to call them back.

[wornthetshirt]

Aug 23, 2009 23:19:10 GMT halfpass said:

Aug 23, 2009 22:32:43 GMT superstar said:

also if the jmb did their job properly there would be no need for this sort of action by society's such as the bsps!

If people did not try to sqeeze a big'un under there would be no need for the JMB to call them back.

H P, you are so right. When will people realise that the JMB, (as the JMB Sec constantly reiterates) is 'owned' by the Societies. No Society can shoot off on a whim and do random official measuring. Or have the time or the place.

Oh, and don't people just love to believe rumours.........!

[jellybabe]

when do you measure a pony
at the start of a season the end the middle
an animal must put on a bit of weight / condition this must affect the height
rules are rules and must be enforced
but it seems that calling a pony in peak condition will take you to the limit
if the jmb want to police this then i would have thought that a measure each time a pony goes in the ring is the simple way
bit like show jumping you knock a fence down out you go
the pony / horse dose,nt measure then you dont compete
stops all the ringside comment

[jellybabe]

worntheshirt et all
this site is all about rumours and gossip
will dig further and find out who this person is