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Post by ponymadmum on Aug 24, 2009 17:47:47 GMT
Perhaps there should be a rule that all horses/ponies placed in a class at RIHS and HOYS are measured at the event-do not know how this could be effected but may make people more cautious of their qualification and take steps to ensure that their animal is the correct height for the class during the qualifying rounds.
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Post by jellybabe on Aug 25, 2009 14:32:14 GMT
H P, you are so right. When will people realise that the JMB, (as the JMB Sec constantly reiterates) is 'owned' by the Societies. No Society can shoot off on a whim and do random official measuring. Or have the time or the place.
Oh, and don't people just love to believe rumours.........!
Link to Post - Back to Top Logged
can the jmb do random official measuring ?
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Post by jellybabe on Aug 25, 2009 14:40:02 GMT
If people did not try to sqeeze a big'un under there would be no need for the JMB to call them back. H P, you are so right. When will people realise that the JMB, (as the JMB Sec constantly reiterates) is 'owned' by the Societies. No Society can shoot off on a whim and do random official measuring. Or have the time or the place. Oh, and don't people just love to believe rumours.........! can the jmb do random official measuring? what would be an example of a pony being remeasured |
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Post by Guestless on Aug 25, 2009 22:33:32 GMT
Not referring to the last couple of posts, but can members please try to keep this thread for JMB only. If you want to talk remeasuring at particular shows, it may be more relevant to start another thread  |
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Post by mf on Aug 26, 2009 14:32:31 GMT
So would everybody be happy to let young ponies that are 122.0 in January compete in August when they have grown to 123.0 against those with 122.0 full certs? If that is OK what about the cheats with their 126cm ponies? Would they be OK to compete as well. yes if said pony had GENUINELY measured 122cm at the start of the season. Otherwise what is the point of an annual certificate? If (as you seem to be saying) that people should remeasure and recategorise their 4 years olds mid season then why did I pay 70 odd pounds plus lose a day's wages to have to take mine in march this year. And do you really expect me to pay for another measure midseason so he can then go up a height category. Surely that's an admission that the current system is flawed and annuals serve no purpose. In which case since regional centres appear to be a no go in your eyes then why don't we go back to measuring on the day at random in classes or walking under the stick before the class as some of the natives do? If people see a pony measuring before their very eyes then it would stop the arguments. Its no use measuring AFTER a class - the true and rightful winner may be robbed of their moment when this happens. Measure before and make it fair if you cannot make the current system fair and workable. The current system is exceptionally easy to exploit. |
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Post by tuppence on Aug 26, 2009 15:29:10 GMT
So would everybody be happy to let young ponies that are 122.0 in January compete in August when they have grown to 123.0 against those with 122.0 full certs? If that is OK what about the cheats with their 126cm ponies? Would they be OK to compete as well. yes if said pony had GENUINELY measured 122cm at the start of the season. Otherwise what is the point of an annual certificate? If (as you seem to be saying) that people should remeasure and recategorise their 4 years olds mid season then why did I pay 70 odd pounds plus lose a day's wages to have to take mine in march this year. And do you really expect me to pay for another measure midseason so he can then go up a height category. Surely that's an admission that the current system is flawed and annuals serve no purpose. In which case since regional centres appear to be a no go in your eyes then why don't we go back to measuring on the day at random in classes or walking under the stick before the class as some of the natives do? If people see a pony measuring before their very eyes then it would stop the arguments. Its no use measuring AFTER a class - the true and rightful winner may be robbed of their moment when this happens. Measure before and make it fair if you cannot make the current system fair and workable. The current system is exceptionally easy to exploit. I am sure that jmbsec once said that in the opinion of JMB horses/ponies don't grow very much after the age of 5. How about this? If we expect 4yo to grow during the season maybe we shouldn't bother measuring 4yo (bang goes 25% of JMB's income so I don't expect they'll like this idea). BUT 4yo would be restricted to Novice classes. I think this would prevent the over-showing of four year olds. For those people that must do Opens/RIHS/HOYS qualifiers - they can show their 4 yo in the Open class if they can produce a valid height certificate, dated less than 30 days before the show. |
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Post by jmbsec on Aug 26, 2009 17:19:27 GMT
JMB is a not for profit organisation and does not therefore pay dividends so no problem with decreased income if number of measurements decreases.
Personally, I do not think horses and ponies grow in height after their 5th birthday but I know plenty of you do so. We have records of thousands of animals that have not grown in height after their 4yo measurement. There is a difference between growth and maturity - the former stops some time before the latter occurs.
If one accepts some growth is likely then measuring young animals is always going to be a flawed method of classification. The societies/shows must decide how they take possible growth into account. If they rule that no animal under , eg, 7yo can compete in classes, so be it.
The NPS allows for growth in their in-hand youngstock classes; why can't a similar method be used in ridden classes?
The JMB are not "against" regional centres, but nobody has been able to sort out the logistics of doing the number of measurements involved in the time allowed and still giving owners some choice of date and/or time and/or location.
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Post by jellybabe on Aug 26, 2009 21:49:16 GMT
i agree with mf why bother measuring a pony if in effect it can be remeasured at any time take your chance ;after you,ve measured it yourself! if the jmb want to sort this out then i would have thought they could issue a height certificate; by a vet( appointed by them  to last 12 months from date of issue once a pony has its life certificate then it can,t be called again--------or can it?? i think if you get the gold certificate then the height is fixed for life whats the difference between gold and normal apart from a few hundred pounds!!!! |
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Post by mandmgirl0164 on Aug 27, 2009 6:21:13 GMT
Jellybabe - if you go back to page one and read all replies posted by JMB - these will answer all your queries.
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Post by jmbsec on Aug 27, 2009 7:45:46 GMT
"Jellybabe - if you go back to page one and read all replies posted by JMB - these will answer all your queries" Or just look at the JMB rules at www.thejmbonline.co.uk, in particular rules 32 and 42 in the measurement and re-measurement sections. |
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Post by meg on Aug 27, 2009 11:26:59 GMT
if horses don't grow after in height after their 5th birthday why do we have to have annuals up to the 7th birthday? This entails getting 3 annuals and one full certificate.
Surely one at their 5th birthday will suffice. Any classes entered prior to that should be as a 4 year old where the height should not be taken into account, just have classes for 4 year olds.
The certificate at 5 should then be a 2 stage measurement by two different vets and should NOT be challenged. Although this would be more time consuming and costly initially, the owners would save money in the longer term.
JMB will lose income but maybe the competition would be fairer and less stressful all round.
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Post by guest on Aug 27, 2009 14:24:42 GMT
It is up to the producer,whether proffessional or otherwise, to ensure that the pony is looking good and going right. All the owners/producers of overheight ponies should dig deep into their conciences and do the right thing or face the music I totally agree, I imagine there will be a few worried owners/producers next week at the champs - as there are still some obviously over height ponies competing. IMHO regardless of which producer clients use, or indeed home produced ponies, an over height pony is an over height pony and there should be no special allowances for anyone. (Even if they do think they deserve special treatment) Watching the show pony classes yesterday at the champs what a variety of sizes in all the classes, some really small, some towering above the rest, at times you needed to check which class you were watching!! |
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Post by mf on Aug 27, 2009 16:19:24 GMT
Personally, I do not think horses and ponies grow in height after their 5th birthday but I know plenty of you do so. We have records of thousands of animals that have not grown in height after their 4yo measurement. There is a difference between growth and maturity - the former stops some time before the latter occurs. I'm afraid having had 5 four year olds over the last 3 years that they do grow. One went from 153 to 156cm in a year, one from 151 to 152cm and one from 158 to 163cm from one year to the next (not remeasured as obviously very overheight). I take my ponies for measuring myself, don't work them/starve them/under water them etc I have no need to as there is always another class to do with them. They measure what they measure on the day. I find the warmblood types are much more likely to grow than native types and ID's. Both my tb's have grown from age 4 to 5 although not as much. |
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Post by jmbsec on Aug 27, 2009 19:08:54 GMT
"having had 5 four year olds over the last 3 years that they do grow. One went from 153 to 156cm in a year, one from 151 to 152cm and one from 158 to 163cm from one year to the next"
Were these increases from 5yo to 6yo, and are you comparing like with like, ie all measurements under the JMB protocol?
If so the 3cm and 5cm increases must be world records and represent 2% and 3% increases. All published surveys suggest only 0.6% growth between 4 and 5 year of age and less after that, so your rates are impressive for 4 to 5 yo and miraculous for 5 to 6yo.
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Post by showing on Aug 27, 2009 19:36:05 GMT
Personally, I do not think horses and ponies grow in height after their 5th birthday but I know plenty of you do so. Now you really are taking the pi**. Is this an April fool or are you really being serious?  Thinking about your comment again - I am sure that you were just joking. Surely.......... If by any small chance that you are actually correct then why do you ask that we measure at 6 and 7 years then? |
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Post by meg on Aug 27, 2009 20:11:53 GMT
showing - that was my point exactly !!! Measure correctly at 5 years - use 2 independent vets on 2 different measuring pads, take blood samples to ensure that no drugs are present, ensure the microchip matches the horse/pony and - bingo - we have the "correct" measurement. Is it really that simple The vets would have to be properly contracted by the JMB so that what they measure is backed by the JMB and there is no comeback on the owner. Obviously if there is any fraud then this is a criminal issue for JMB to sort out ! Could we put an end to this back biting and return to proper competition. |
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Post by delliam on Aug 27, 2009 21:14:21 GMT
Where do we find this published survey please, would be interested to read it.
The problem is, all horses are different, so be prepared for some world records as I am sure we all have proof of growth in our horses over the years.
My horse who I have had for eleven years has a height certificate as a four year old for 15.2 he now stands at 16.1 (before you comment I am old so still in old meassurements, sorry ) We bought another horse ID X as a 3 year old measured 16.3 .as a 7 year old he was 18 hands. We had another horse that was 15 hands as a four year old that we thought would grow and she remained 15 hands and never grew at all, she was TB X .
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Post by jmbsec on Aug 29, 2009 22:33:21 GMT
The JMB office will be closed from 2nd September to 10th September 2009.
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Post by perfect on Aug 30, 2009 10:02:45 GMT
can the jmb explain to us how we are supposed to transport our horses back home after having them measured and our passports taken from us to be sent to you to be stamped. iwas pulled on the way home and was informed that i could face a fine of £3000 for not having it with me, thankfully he let me of with a caution. Please explain>>>>>>>>>>
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Post by jmbsec on Aug 30, 2009 17:43:07 GMT
"can the jmb explain to us how we are supposed to transport our horses back home after having them measured and our passports taken from us to be sent to you to be stamped"
We have identified this problem and have consulted DEFRA. We await their decision on how to sort this problem out.
We will issue a separate JMB cert if owners wish to keep possession of the passport and this may be the only solution.
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Post by showing on Aug 30, 2009 18:54:50 GMT
Personally, I do not think horses and ponies grow in height after their 5th birthday but I know plenty of you do so. Now you really are taking the pi**. Is this an April fool or are you really being serious? Thinking about your comment again - I am sure that you were just joking. Surely.......... If by any small chance that you are actually correct then why do you ask that we measure at 6 and 7 years then? JMB Sec - could you answer my question please. |
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Post by fatcob on Aug 30, 2009 19:29:48 GMT
I applaud jmbsec for coming on here and aswering questions - it must add considerably to the day job! However there are some valid questions being raised here that are not being answered. Many pages back I too raised the issue of 5 6 and 7 yr olds growing. If the jmbsec is only using data that they see then it is hardly surprising he thinks they do not grow after this age. The data is limited to measurable horses, so for example anything over 16hh is not included. ( I know of quite a few warmblood types who grew after the age of 5) Also if I had a cob that was 5 and 6 and was measured but then went past the 15.1hh mark I would not present it for measuring - so again this data is excluded. So JMBsec if you really think they do not grow after 5 WHY do we have to keep measuring? ? |
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Post by delliam on Aug 30, 2009 20:22:56 GMT
My question again, where do we find published survey please?
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Post by jmbsec on Aug 31, 2009 18:23:21 GMT
To fatcob and delliam:
I will let this thread run for a bit longer before commenting.
Moderators - should we start another thread on growth rate of horses and ponies and move some of these messages to it??
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Post by showing on Aug 31, 2009 18:51:04 GMT
To fatcob and delliam: I will let this thread run for a bit longer before commenting. WHY? ?? You are just avoiding a VERY simple question. |
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Post by xxshowponyxx on Aug 31, 2009 19:14:02 GMT
To fatcob and delliam: I will let this thread run for a bit longer before commenting. Moderators - should we start another thread on growth rate of horses and ponies and move some of these messages to it?? Very bizarre!!! Why can you not just answer their question?? This is not a thread concerning the growth rate of horse/ponies but rather why we have to keep measuring after 5 if you have specific scientific evidence that horses/ponies dont grow after that age. |
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Post by jmbsec on Sept 1, 2009 9:05:27 GMT
I had hoped that more people would comment on when animals stop growing upwards but other than a few world record reports everybody is keeping quiet.
It is accepted that all growth plates that affect height in all equidae fuse, ie all growth stops, at around 48 months of age - for the surveys some of you want to see just google "height, horses, growth". Biology is not exact so add 6 mths, that brings us to 54 months. Round up to the nearest year - that makes 5 years.
Because we assume all animals have there birthdays on 1st Jan, ie a one day old animal beomes a yearling on 1st Jan, when we measure a 4yo it could only be 3yrs and a 5yo only 4yo. So add a year to the max height age to remove this anomaly - now we get 6 years. For many years this was the age for full meas certs but the Stewards changed this in ?1990, I assume because so many people thought animlas growth up to 7yo (or 6yo for the late foals).
I have looked at the first 200 or so of our records (we have over 60000 animals on the database!). Between 5 and 7yo 63% grew less than 0.5cm and 76% less than one 1cm. Some of these animals were nearer 4 than 5 when they were first measured.
Perhaps not no growth after 5 years of age, but not much and far less than we have read here!
As regards selection pressure, ie owners not bothering to re-present those that have grown out of the class, that may apply to some horse classes but most ponies need the meas cert, even if it takes them into the next class, to be able to compete in something.
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Post by fatcob on Sept 1, 2009 12:15:22 GMT
Thank you for your response. So they DO grrow after 5 - in fact the amount of growth you refer to is the amount that some horses have now been measured "out" by.
Many pages back I also raised the issue of your comment that show fit horses will not measure bigger than unfit horses. Do you still stand by that?
thanks
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Post by jmbsec on Sept 1, 2009 13:45:37 GMT
Further examination of the data shows that between 6 and 7yo 90% do not grow at all. Therefore all increases appear between 5 and 6yo - as many of these will be nearer 4 and 5yo when measured I think my hypothesis that they do not grow after their true fifth birthday begins to look more plausible.
Of course none of this explains the up to 7cm errors we have seen at re-measurements.
Regarding the height of fit/fat versus unfit/thin animals (and putting aside the possible more time and effort needed to allow the animal to attain its minimum relaxed height if fit/fat) what structures are longer or shorter in the fit/fat animal that would make it stand higher than when unfit/thin?
Am I being naive but shouldn't animals measure within the required height at any time including when they are fit/fat?
Of course none of this explains the up to 7cm errors we have seen at re-measurements.
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Post by fatcob on Sept 1, 2009 13:54:12 GMT
Quote -
what structures are longer or shorter in the fit/fat animal that would make it stand higher than when unfit/thin?
The tendon and muscle structure in the foreleg! There is scientific proof that a fit athlete ( human and hoss) is taller than an unfit one!
But I think you ARE being naive when you say quote -
Am I being naive but shouldn't animals measure within the required height at any time including when they are fit/fat?
how is this possible? How are you supposed to gauge how much difference this would make on a practical level? In any event there is a level playing field - ALL horses can be measured when unfit.
This is why I think people are objecting so much to mid season measuring!
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