hacks
Junior Member
Posts: 51 
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Post by hacks on Aug 18, 2009 18:30:31 GMT
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Post by JadeCannon on Aug 18, 2009 18:49:02 GMT
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Post by wisdom on Aug 18, 2009 19:52:30 GMT
I wonder why the petition is only lobbying one member society - BSPS, surely one member society cannot act alone against the JMB, as other societies are members also. IMO the petition's origin must be people/organisation who are competing in BSPS classes. At the end of the day (with regard to an over height animal) if you have nothing to hide then you have nothing to worry about  You only have to look at the JMB website to see how many ponies and horses are measuring over, at least the JMB are trying to sort out the problems and some measured out ponies are competing at the highest level with excellent results in the next size class. Although I still think JMB should attend some member society shows to see for themselves how many 'big' ponies are still competing. |
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Post by Rockstar on Aug 18, 2009 20:21:58 GMT
Wisdom - The petition asks for your BSPS Membership number in order to register your signature so it is only BSPS members who can sign it.
When we took Fly for his re-measurement yesterday, the JMB representative said they only know about 'big' horses if people tell them about them (which is fair enough!). But I know the £600 you have to fork out to object puts a lot of people off, even if there is a chance you get it back if the horse measures over.
To be honest, given the stress we have been through over the past 3 weeks waiting for Fly's re-measurement (due to him having been measured by our local vet in essex - and we know he isnt big, he re-measured in easily), Im not sure I would be mean enough to put anyone else though it!
There is a serious flaw in the system though, how can us competitors be confident in the JMB appointed measuring vets if the JMB arent confident in them either!!
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Post by wisdom on Aug 18, 2009 20:51:03 GMT
'There is a serious flaw in the system though, how can us competitors be confident in the JMB appointed measuring vets if the JMB arent confident in them either!!'
Totally agree Rockstar - but I don't know the answer to this problem. All sorts of answers have been suggested on HG, but each one has flaws, as long as you have dishonest competitors and measurers you will have over height ponies and horses.
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Post by elc on Aug 18, 2009 22:10:17 GMT
you can do a WHOIS lookup and it will tell you.... |
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Post by JadeCannon on Aug 19, 2009 7:20:01 GMT
you can do a WHOIS lookup and it will tell you.... Useful tool - no idea who it is though! |
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Post by jmbsec on Aug 19, 2009 8:42:19 GMT
"That way if you had 10 centres and 5 diff days each then that is 150 animals per centre and 30 each day to measure. Make that 15 centres and it is 100 animals per centre and 20 per day to measure. If both vets are from diff surgeries...."
20 or 30 a day - one can take up to an hour!
"...the £600 objection fee makes it fairly safe to compete an overheight animal. It is exceptionally easy to get a 4, 5 or 6 year old measured at the height you wish as obviously if anyone objects then all you say is 'well they're expected to grow'.... I expect my 4 year olds to grow but if they have been measured ... in jan then they should be allowed to compete for the rest of the season..."
So would everybody be happy to let young ponies that are 122.0 in January compete in August when they have grown to 123.0 against those with 122.0 full certs? If that is OK what about the cheats with their 126cm ponies? Would they be OK to compete as well.
The petition is a cheat's charter!
Why not turn the petition on its head - only measure between March and October - less chance of changes between measure and show due to growth and animals would be measured in the condition they will be shown in, in fact why not make it a JMB rule to present the animals in show condition.
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hacks
Junior Member
Posts: 51
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Post by hacks on Aug 19, 2009 8:50:36 GMT
At the end of the day, we all must buy inheight (for our chosen show classes) horses or ponies that should they ever be recalled for measuring - we know that they will measure in. It actually all starts with us the purchasers.
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Post by wornthetshirt on Aug 19, 2009 9:11:54 GMT
JMBSec, I fully agree with you, "the petition is a cheat's charter"
If animals were of the correct height for the classification then no-one has anything to hide, any more than if an animal (or indeed an athlete) is required to give a sample for routine dope testing.
If it is clean then there is no issue.
There is a passage in 'the petition' which says - and here I quote - "we feel that if a pony is measured at the begining of the year in good faith......"
It has been established that a certain number of animals were NOT measured in 'good faith' this year (and possibly other years?)
which in my opinion, amounts to fraudulent behaviour.
Another passage reads "in most cases the riders....are children, the impact on whom can be devastating" I totally agree.
So, why buy, advise to buy, (and/or pay to have produced) animals which are on the height limit when they are still young? Surely it can only lead to this "devastation", when said pony does what all young things do; grow and furnish.
People need to think very seriously before voting to promote the petition. The very title of the petition is such to make the ordinary 'man/woman in the street' asume that it has been promoted by an officer of the society involved, which is, of course, not the case.
I speak as someone who first started showing in 1958 and as a life member of the main societies involved.
All I and (the majority of) Exhibitors, Breeders and Judges want to see is a level playing field for fair competition.
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Post by Guestless on Aug 19, 2009 9:19:21 GMT
in fact why not make it a JMB rule to present the animals in show condition. Seems to me that its likely this would be an unpopular move, but it would certainly do away with a lot of the complaints about having to remeasure in mid showing season.  |
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Post by Tandy on Aug 19, 2009 9:31:24 GMT
in fact why not make it a JMB rule to present the animals in show condition. Seems to me that its likely this would be an unpopular move, but it would certainly do away with a lot of the complaints about having to remeasure in mid showing season. agree and think its actualy a very good idea. |
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Post by wornthetshirt on Aug 19, 2009 10:06:01 GMT
Seems to me that its likely this would be an unpopular move, but it would certainly do away with a lot of the complaints about having to remeasure in mid showing season. agree and think its actualy a very good idea. And after all, at some of the bigger NPS Affilliated shows including the championship Show, Riding Pony and Hunter Pony Youngstock are measured 'on the day'. There is set criteria laid down for heights, allowing for significant growth of the pony over the 1/2/3year old age span. These ponies grow up to become the eg. Ridden Show Pony, Show Hunter Pony, or Intermediate/Show Hack etc. - and that's where and when and with whom the problems seem to begin. I believe I'm correct in saying that Fell youngsters (colts and 3 year-olds?) are also subject to 'on the day' measuring. FEI Jumping Ponies are subject to being measured at shows, as are ponies in Eire. They are no less fit than the ones in dispute at the moment! Measuring during the season certainly seems a sensible solution. However, there is the 'Winter' season showing (and jumping)circuit to be considered too, which at the moment, is partially catered for when measuring from the 1st Jan. |
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Post by whocares on Aug 19, 2009 13:33:31 GMT
BSJA and BE members will not be signing Upton this ridiculous petition because they are quite happy for ponies to be measured mid season to ensure ponies the right height compete in their appropriate class . As a result it is now rare to see a big pony in BSJA pony classes or Pony Trials.
What is wrong with the BSPS membership ?
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Post by elc on Aug 19, 2009 14:16:38 GMT
I for one will not be signin. You can measure any of my ponies - anyday, anytime, anywhere, & that's how I believe it should be. I also thought it was in the constitution of the BSPS that a pony should measure within the height limits "on the day". The petition has got another use though - forward the list of names to the JMB - IMO potentially a list of people with overheight ponies  |
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Post by elc on Aug 19, 2009 14:19:17 GMT
IMO the major flaw with objecting is not actually the £600 - it's the fact that the qualification tickets don't get passed down the line should a pony subsequently measure out. Let's face it, should any of us feel so strongly we were robbed of a ticket we'd do all we could to find the money if it meant the ticket was passed down. As it is, objecting is a bit pointless.....
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Post by wisdom on Aug 19, 2009 14:36:30 GMT
IMO the major flaw with objecting is not actually the £600 - it's the fact that the qualification tickets don't get passed down the line should a pony subsequently measure out. Let's face it, should any of us feel so strongly we were robbed of a ticket we'd do all we could to find the money if it meant the ticket was passed down. As it is, objecting is a bit pointless..... I think JMBsec, that you may have just found a solution to the objecting procedure. If these valuable qualification tickets were passed down then you would find yourself with lots of objections and lots of happy competitors. |
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Post by wornthetshirt on Aug 19, 2009 15:10:53 GMT
Wisdom, that is wise. And elc and whocares - very sound sensible comments - but it is the Societies who would have to decide wether the coveted Qualification passes down the line.
The difference is that with for example, on the day measuring for an FEI or BE pony is that it wouldn't be allowed to compete if it is over the height allowed. But these fraudulent 'delightful people' have been in the ring and have already 'stolen' the ticket from their erstwhile friend/s, as they have competed. They are only found out afterwards.
Lobbying the relevant Showing Societies might make a difference.
Disposing of animals in the wrong height class would take some, if not most of the current bitterness out of showing.
I have to say, I was a tall skinny child and rode above my height/age group - and went onto horses quite early. No-one grumbled in those days. But we did have the JMB - well, it was the JMS (scheme) then.
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Post by ladyofleisure on Aug 19, 2009 15:39:32 GMT
I am not totally conversant with everything written here, but it is glaringly obvious that when animals have been shown as yougstock in an upper height classification, including 14.2's that go into hack classes then it is not rocket science that some of these animals are overheight and will remain so. Years ago a 13.2 3yr old was measured out and went into 14.2 but a week later was back in 13.2 3yr old class - same conditions, showground, noise etc. In relation to childrens ponies I am sure no one here objects to a better animal winning - ever - but the sadness is, is when people knowingly get overheight animals measured - that is not fair to the children. Good Luck JMB on the crackdown - I ask more vets are reviewed.
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Post by whocares on Aug 19, 2009 17:37:46 GMT
What a ridiculous proposition that the JMB should be going after the vets!
If vets have acted fraudulently that is a matter for their professional body,civil action or the police. All the JMB can do is cease to have them on their panel. They cannot prosecute them.
If competitors seek to perpetrate a fraud by getting animals measured at less than its' genuine height and thereby get them into classes for which they are not genuinely eligible that is a matter for the relevant society , because it is the society and its members which suffer from the actions of the fraudulent competitor and there is no other means of redress. Ofcourse I am sure that none of the owners of re measured ponies have acted fraudulently and each incorrect measurement is an unfortunate mistake.
The JMB is the agent of the societies and its actions seem to me to be entirely correct although it might exercise its own power to call for re-measurements more freely.
The real issue is what the societies will do about competitors competing overheight animals or animals measured under more than one name which is what I assume AKA means.As they can rarely know whether the competitor has acted fraudulently the only reasonable sanction would seem to be to remove all qualifications and give them to the next eligible pony. What the societies should not do is submit to the sort of nonsense suggested by the BSPS petition.
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Post by wisdom on Aug 19, 2009 17:39:15 GMT
'The petition has got another use though - forward the list of names to the JMB - IMO potentially a list of people with overheight ponies' posted by elc Have just looked on H&H website and tomorrows magazine has an article about the petition, unfortunately the print is too small for my old eyes to read, but I think it links the petition to a pony producer - interesting reading tomorrow (just before BSPS Champs as well)
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Post by whocares on Aug 19, 2009 21:16:14 GMT
Marie and Wonderer you seem to be suggesting that owners travel hundreds of miles to measuring vets solely for the purpose of getting their horse measured at a height less than its true height.
Presumably they achieve this either by bribery, which clearly requires an intention to defraud on the part of the owner and the vet. ;or by doping or other means which represent an intention to mislead the vet as to the true height of their animal.
In either scenario the owner is the instigator of the action which leads to the horse being measured at a height less than its true height. They are also the people over whom the Societies have some influence in that they can refuse membership , re-direct qualifications or take other disciplinary action. They in fact do nothing.
The societies can do nothing about the vets in the absence of clear evidence of fraud other than remove them from the JMB panel.This is no real threat as I know of very few vets who want to be on that panel anyway. I am not a vet myself.
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Post by jmbsec on Aug 19, 2009 22:09:57 GMT
"how come a vet can be struck off for altering date of a flu jab but a vet ot vets who knowingly are measuring falsely nothing happens to them"
The JMB can and do remove vets from the panel. Any further disciplinary action by the Royal College of Vet Surgeons takes time (note the time between signing a dodgy vacc cert and striking off), many months or even years.
" the jmb seem to do a lot pf whining and are the pupeteers of certain influential people so jmb get your act toghether or do the vets frighten you and its easier to go after competitors "
Let's have your evidence for any of these allegations.
Did you mean we are puppeteers, ie we pull the strings, or the puppets of "influential" people. Who are these people? "Do you know who I am/what I own" etc comments to us does not tend to endear these "important" people to us.
I think all the vets would agree that WE frighten them, especially when they fill in the paperwork with wrong ages, colours, names etc!
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Post by ladyofleisure on Aug 20, 2009 8:51:43 GMT
Who appoints the vets?? If a pony IS taken in good faith to a vet to measure, a contract is entered into. Who is the fee made payable to??!! How many times, owners and producers, have you been asked "how big do you want it?" Now that this issue has come to a head, and seemingly many people are getting very 'twitchy' on the subject, then it is time for postive action now. It is all going around abd around - spot checks required!
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hacks
Junior Member
Posts: 51
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Post by hacks on Aug 20, 2009 11:18:20 GMT
Another one for the intermediate ranks then LOL.
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Post by agent on Aug 20, 2009 11:44:47 GMT
Well, it would seem from whois to be someone connected to Thompson in Staffs! I will certainly not be signing - I agree with other comments. You very rarely get big jumping or eventing ponies - and why? because they measure them at shows - in stressful conditions, and give them a slight leeway. What is wrong with the people who object to all this - I bet they all have oversized animals |
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Post by wornthetshirt on Aug 20, 2009 12:23:15 GMT
IMO, signing this thing would be quite wrong.
All the pony showing societies, BSPS, P(UK) & NPS run a Winter series and that culmunates in Winter/Spring Championship shows.
Those animals, too, need a certificate. What is wrong with sticking to the traditional 1st January, the same as the animals (and the child rider's) determination of age/class.
The creator of the petition states that an animal can grow 2cm when 'up'. That is nearly an INCH. I think not.
Fatty deposits make no difference to the height at the withers. Fitness may do, but surely if one wishes to compete in the spring, the animal must be 'up' and in some sort of order by January (particularly if it is contesting the aforementioned Winter Championships).
It is reassuring and positive to read in H&H that the BSPS Chairman is supportive of the JMB's purge on overheight horse/ponies and he states that some people are not abiding by the (BSPS's) rules.
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Post by wisdom on Aug 20, 2009 13:33:38 GMT
have you seen on the JMB wesite update as to what animals have be measured -- the most notable one is the R.I.H.S. winner I sympathise with the pony's owners who I presume bought the pony with a height certificate this year. IMHO to measure over less than one month after winning at RIHS must be totally devastating for the 2nd placed pony at RIHS - their moment of glory taken from them by an over height pony. Incidentally, the Leaventhorpe Hall Supreme Riding Pony Champion 2009 wasn't a pony it was a horse. Lets hope JMB keep cleaning up showing, making it fair for everyone - produced or not before HOYS. |
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Post by wornthetshirt on Aug 20, 2009 14:31:16 GMT
My sympathy, like yours, definately lies with the second placed child and connections not only at the RIHS but also at the show where this animal qualified for HOYS.
Edited to correct a typo.
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Post by horsesforcourses on Aug 20, 2009 18:26:05 GMT
REGARDING THE PETITION.....
Just to put straight... the petitions purpose is actually to get the views of the BSPS members on re measurement MId season and NOT re-measurement in general. The hopeful outcome is to gather YOUR views and organise a meeting as to where OUR society can progress/change regarding the subject of re measurement.
As stated in the horse and hound the petition is not actually of the idea of Gill Thompson but infact her husband. It is easy to stand at a ringside and comment on said producer being a 'cheat' and it is also easy to put on objection BUT what is not easy is dealing with the heartbroken children that have to be told that they can not show their beloved ponies this weekend or next or for the rest of the season because of a re-call [again i would like to stress I am personally not objecting to re measurement but just when it takes place mid seaon]
The child in question regarding the 14.2 RIHS winner is devasted yes.... and im sure the 2nd pony jockey does feel a slight annoyance however as this is a CHILDRENS SOCIETY i fail to see how slating this pony makes anybody feel they have had their 'Opinion' . Knowing this child does read HG i shudder to think how she is feeling, especially knowing a close mentor that has 'worn similar clothing as her'is saying such spiteful comments.
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