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Post by Pepper on Jun 15, 2015 8:41:03 GMT
And hunter weights !
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Post by bubbles1822 on Jun 15, 2015 10:33:10 GMT
I also thought this and I have the seemingly unpopular view that the combination that qualify should be the combination in the ring at the final at HOYS That old chestnut raises it's head again!
Can never see it happening
Best way forward would be for an Amateur M&M Ridden @ Hoys 'Amateur' being a term that is not a true reflection of the classes amateur competitors want as the question of eligibility is questioned
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Post by snowman on Jun 15, 2015 11:47:43 GMT
I would like to see M and M hoys flat qualifiers to have Mares and Geldings only classes as they are already split, and a seperate small and large breeds stallion classes - that would def give people a far more level playing field IMO
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Post by hellmanns on Jun 15, 2015 11:53:25 GMT
I would like to see M and M hoys flat qualifiers to have Mares and Geldings only classes as they are already split, and a seperate small and large breeds stallion classes - that would def give people a far more level playing field IMO WHY?! That makes out that stallions are better than mares or geldings - Why would you think that?
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Post by daisycutter on Jun 15, 2015 12:07:21 GMT
Do What we do if your stood second to a producer assume you are really first, some of you out there may think how silly, but believe it or not it does help your frustrations, I do not think things will ever change, you pay your money and take your chance, we all know this showing thing is a terminal illness !!!!!!!!!!!!
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Post by bubbles1822 on Jun 15, 2015 12:08:28 GMT
I would like to see M and M hoys flat qualifiers to have Mares and Geldings only classes as they are already split, and a seperate small and large breeds stallion classes - that would def give people a far more level playing field IMO WHY?! That makes out that stallions are better than mares or geldings - Why would you think that? Hmmm.... i think what they are staying is stallions generally have more presence in the ring and do have different shape to mares in particular. Maybe a better concept would be a Stallion only and a mare/gelding class qualifier at each of the Breed shows... Stallions Faults should be penalized heavily were as a mare/gelding faults are a smaller issue (this is from a breeding perspective, a stallion can sire multiple foals per year where as a mare only 1, hence the mares fault being a much smaller issue)
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Post by Goodforhim on Jun 15, 2015 16:58:50 GMT
I have a friend who is a judge, when he is judging a championship and really can't decide between two for Champ and reserve, he picks the underdog, the one who isn't a well known face or a producer . Of course there are times when it's two faces or producers but when he feels since it is so close between the two horses by giving It to the underdog it builds confidence and encourages them to keep competing I think it's a great way to look at things, but as I say it's rare as not often is he stuck with what to place where.
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Post by bigmama on Jun 15, 2015 17:01:04 GMT
That old chestnut raises it's head again!
Can never see it happening
Best way forward would be for an Amateur M&M Ridden @ Hoys 'Amateur' being a term that is not a true reflection of the classes amateur competitors want as the question of eligibility is questioned Oh dear, you are sceptical It would still mean highest-placed non-producer/non-professional riders would qualify for their own class @ Hoys
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Post by Horsecrazy01 on Jun 16, 2015 14:18:50 GMT
WHY?! That makes out that stallions are better than mares or geldings - Why would you think that? Hmmm.... i think what they are staying is stallions generally have more presence in the ring and do have different shape to mares in particular. Maybe a better concept would be a Stallion only and a mare/gelding class qualifier at each of the Breed shows... Stallions Faults should be penalized heavily were as a mare/gelding faults are a smaller issue (this is from a breeding perspective, a stallion can sire multiple foals per year where as a mare only 1, hence the mares fault being a much smaller issue) I think we're going off subject here a little..? Splitting of mares, geldings and stallions would never happen and why should it, we all have a choice in what sex we wish to bring into the show ring? Also why should a stallion be penalised anymore than a mare? Or any other sex? Makes totally no sense when you say "a mares fault is a smaller issue"- a confirmation fault in the show ring is a confirmation fault and if you are referring to breeding terms a foal takes more from the mare than the stallion. You could turn the card the other way by saying stallions HAVE to be licensed to be shown and used at stud for breeding, yet anyone can breed from any mare and show it? This wasn't a breeding debate and we could delve into all kinds of subjects, please can we keep to that of the original post
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Post by Carotting on Jun 20, 2015 10:31:48 GMT
I was at a county show a number of years ago and the PA system went a bit loopy. Now my pony stood rock solid and the pony above me (producer stripped, well know producers rider on board) went nuts so did third place. I ended up getting pulled top and when the judge gave the now second place producer's rider his rosette the judge apologised saying " could you tell ... I'm sorry but it would have been obvious if Id have left you top" I burst out laughing handed my rosette back to the judge and promptly left the ring. I made a complaint and nothing was done!!
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Post by ukshowing on Jun 20, 2015 11:27:46 GMT
Agree with Bigmama, It`s a pity J Bushel has to justify herself and her fellow Judge. In my case being judged by her we have often won, we have often been placed down the line, she has always been very fair and judged what is in front of her on the day. She is also one of the few Judges where you can follow her way of judging. So if on the day your Pony is good enough and performs well enough you will be in the ribbons, and if your Pony is good enough and performs the best you will win.
We have never been fortunate to have her Judge at UK Showing, but believe she would be an excellent draw for competitors, and would be nothing but fair.
Jeanette
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Post by ohnonotagain on Jun 24, 2015 22:39:58 GMT
Try comparing the judge who judged the olympia at suffolk and the hoys today at three counties and see who got the tickets makes interesting especially when you go back over the last 2to 3 years I thought there were two judges at both these events. Oh and look more success with four more judges today.
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Sam
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Post by Sam on Jun 26, 2015 9:29:54 GMT
In one of the M&M classes in Cheshire county it was blatant face judging or both judges did not understand the meaning of correct conformation, movement and way of going. This horse will be representing the breed at HOYS with obvious undesirable major faults. It will be interesting to see both sets of marks!
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Post by LouLou02 on Jun 26, 2015 10:09:21 GMT
Couldn't agree more with you Sam, I think most of line up was faces at Cheshire and definitely not the best ponies going forward in some classes. Even someone who didn't even watch the classes told us who would be winning them- & hey ho they were right! Some stunning ponies left the ring without a placing, particularly in the m&m ring, its sad to watch.
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Post by Recognition on Jun 26, 2015 14:17:33 GMT
I wasn't at 3 Counties or Cheshire so have no idea what is being talked about, and cannot comment directly - however I do feel that some judges perhaps are not familiar with certain breed types and are therefore swayed by a well known face, thinking that 'oh if so and so is on board it must be a good pony'. Certainly they often go very well in the ride but not always do they have the best conformation. Frustrating but that is why people pay well known people to ride their horses/ponies, guaranteed results!
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Post by Cheshire Faces on Jun 26, 2015 15:25:06 GMT
I thought this too! Glad i didn't waste my money my money going as when it comes to producers i am classed as a 'nobody' so wouldn't of stood a chance. I thought they would be very good judges but now to cross them off!
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Post by Its a Shame on Jun 26, 2015 16:30:05 GMT
Ive witnessed this numerous times this year. In an early RI qualifier this year I actually heard the judge greet two of the top placed children by their first names. Their ponies both made mistakes but guess what result stood and before you say it sour grapes I didn't have a pony in the class! Ive also witnessed producers going in and stripping has a favour because they have a "good" relationship with the judge and at Royal Windsor a rider in meltdown because there was a last minute change of judge. The tickets are what everybody strives for its a shame that SOME judges hand them out as back handers unfortunately its a problem that will never been resolved.
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Post by sageandonionagain on Jun 26, 2015 18:57:39 GMT
I don't show these days, we moved to dressage. Occasionally there are competitors dissatisfied with the judging. They may mention this on the BD forum, but are more inclined, if they are sure they have proper reason to complain, to follow the correct procedure as laid down in the rule book and complain to BD. With videos everywhere these days, it is easy to produce evidence, notice will also be taken of repeat complaints by different competitors about the same judge. The judge's past record will be looked at along with other evidence and if necessary training will be given or disciplinary action will be taken. I believe a similar complaints procedure is in place for BSJA and BE.
So why not complain in the proper manner? I am not suggesting you are just having a gossip, too many people are unhappy for there not to be a real problem, but coming on here again and again and not actually complaining through the correct channel is just simply horsegossip. It doesn't actually achieve anything. What other activity with constant perceived unfair judging would continue to be supported relentlessly by unhappy competitors? Maybe American baby beauty pageants?
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Cheshire County Spectator
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Post by Cheshire County Spectator on Jun 26, 2015 19:35:43 GMT
So why not complain in the proper manner? I am not suggesting you are just having a gossip, too many people are unhappy for there not to be a real problem, but coming on here again and again and not actually complaining through the correct channel is just simply horsegossip. It doesn't actually achieve anything. I was at Cheshire County and witnessed some facey judging, including a beautiful, but positively unlevel winner.
However the classes were huge, and I also saw many worthy winners. Because of the size and quality of the classes, undoubtedly some beautiful exhibits would have missed out on the places.
Nothing will be done about "favour for friends" and facey judging until people complain through the proper channels. Moaning on here is not enough. However, the trouble with showing is everyone and his dog is an "expert." People often think worthier ponies have missed out because they haven't seen their conformation faults, or indeed the prizewinners' outstanding conformation, close too. Many ringside judges wouldn't have a clue what a well set shoulder, flat bone, a clean throat or a well set tail look like, let alone what boxy feet, bog spavins or luxation of the pastern joint are (increasingly seen in overfat youngstock). A lot of people think a good show is one where the horse managed to complete it without going on the wrong leg, despite running round at top speed with its nose on its chest and its hocks in the next county.
I wish one or two of these moaners would apply to go on some of the judging panels to show us all how it is done! I think they might find it is not as easy as it looks from the ringside.
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Sam
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Post by Sam on Jun 26, 2015 22:35:44 GMT
Cheshire County Spectator - Many so called 'ring side judges' (who are on judging panels) saw winning exhibit who dished so badly you could see from all directions, could not move from the shoulder and shuffled along in the individual show and could not track up. Another placed exhibit was platting so badly, front feet were crossing over each other in the walk - how could these faults be missed in the ring by the judges if noticed outside by so many? These faults should be severely penalized. There are so many knowledgeable judges and spectators with so much expertise watching from outside the ring and these things do not go unnoticed.
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Post by sageandonionagain on Jun 27, 2015 8:14:16 GMT
So Sam would it not be far more productive to video these faults, take a snap of the results sheet and send to the governing society. They would then be in a position to educate the judge on such conformation and way of going faults. Judge will undoubtedly be far more careful with his/her assessment in future (armed with new found knowledge)or if continues to ignore them will be removed from the judging panel. You need to Police your own competitions or you will be complaining as above in ten years time like you were ten years ago.
What I hate (and this is sort of a facey thing) is if a judge comes on here, people start commending and complimenting with cap in hand. That's a more bonafide gossip comment since it isn't a standards issue and cannot be sorted out by complaint procedure made to a society. They all have procedures, use them.
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Post by Connie55 on Jun 27, 2015 17:55:11 GMT
So are we suggesting we should start getting evidence and sending it along with the mark sheets to the relevant judging panels? Will the judging panels investigate further? How do you explain ponies that wrong leg in an open show still being placed in a hoys qualifier then? I've witnessed this twice already at two different shows this season already? Can we politely question the judge on how they can justify and over look a wrong leg?
I'm sorry but we ALL know some judges do see these faults yet STILL continue to place the face!
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Post by sageandonionagain on Jun 27, 2015 19:14:18 GMT
Yes, I think you should have evidence. If you are going to criticise a judge, you need to substantiate this. You should look at the rules and regulations of the society where they simply must have a complaints procedure. Follow that as you would any other complaint, be polite, persistent and assertive.
As you say, you ALL know some judges that place a face despite faults. How many of you are complaining to the right people? My question must be why on earth you all continue to pay your subscription fees to affiliate, the huge costs that go along with preparing your pony for the ring, getting there and the class fee to walk away convinced the class was fixed (and that's what we are saying here) yet do nothing about it except come on here, facebook and elsewhere to find kindred spirits equally aggrieved and then go do it all over again. You need to get the problems sorted.
If the society disagree with your complaint, you will no doubt receive an answer as to why a pony that has taken a wrong leg in canter (not a huge fault in my opinion) has been placed.
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Post by littlebriars on Jun 27, 2015 20:35:59 GMT
Having watch several in-hand classes at county level, i question the actual quality of "producer" produced ponies, and if i or any other NONE well known handlers was actually leading the produced pony, where would we stand in the line-up ? NOT top for sure .....
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Post by puzzledddd on Jun 27, 2015 21:02:56 GMT
Im puzzled at how judges can pull a animal top in a hoys class and win with a splint like a golf ball :/ it seemingly doesn't matter about clean limbs.
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Post by joules on Jun 28, 2015 9:52:06 GMT
Well there are still some fair judges out there, I had a little moan on this thread earlier, this weekend in a class of 26 I must say the ride judge was really fair, what was pulled on top that did not give a good show was marked accordingly, the ones at the bottom of the line were also marked well if they did a good show, surly this is how it should be, not the marks going down in both ride and conformation the lower down the line,I feel this is a ridden class and more marks should be given for performance, I understand we want the best of our breed to go to RIHS & HOYS but so often the conformation mark plays a more important part in qualifing, after all it is a ridden class not in hand.
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Post by the showing register on Jun 28, 2015 10:56:23 GMT
A lot of the comments on here are regarding the standard of judging ie ponies winning with splìnts , dishing etc.
In football referees have a type of regulation that checks their standards to make sure they are all working to the same levels and guidelines. In top dressage the judges all pre judge a non competitor to set the standard. Any ideas for showing here ??
Wendy
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Post by maddiesmum on Jun 28, 2015 12:08:42 GMT
I think it's a tricky line to tread.....without judges giving up their time for only expenses & often for nothing (I am on a show committee & several of our lovely judges refuse to take mileage money etc) if we start to give them too many hoops to jump through, we might loose some wonderful knowledgeable judges.
That being said, I do think we should all be accountable for our decisions & if say more than 3-5 results are officially questioned (not just moaned about on here) then perhaps that judge could be reassessed by the relevant panel?
On the subject of performance vs conformation I would like to see more emphasis on manners and way of going in the children's ponies classes. Often a solid confirmation mark can keep a pony in the placings when it has not gone as a true child's pony. Which to me is what these classes should be about.
As you move up the ranks I think confirmation & type comes into it's own more as said above, we want the best breed examples at HOYS, Olympia etc....
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Post by Fed up on Jun 28, 2015 14:26:49 GMT
I agree with the very first post on this thread and am disappointed to say that the Chaps Hoys classes are some of the worst in this practice. The Royal Highland was an embarrassment to watch as are many other chaps hoys classes over the years. Shame on those involved!
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Post by CarolineNelson on Jun 28, 2015 15:51:55 GMT
I agree with the very first post on this thread and am disappointed to say that the Chaps Hoys classes are some of the worst in this practice. The Royal Highland was an embarrassment to watch as are many other chaps hoys classes over the years. Shame on those involved! Is that really a necessary comment? As a regular steward of well over a decade at the Royal Highland (though not, for the last few years, in the 'Coloured' rings) we all 'work' unbelievably hard to ensure that all our competitors enjoy a great showing experience, win or lose. We even achieved good weather this time! So, what, please, is the gripe ?
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