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Post by Welshmaid on Jun 30, 2015 8:33:07 GMT
Producers should not be allowed to judge- its a major conflict of interest
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Post by janetbushell on Jun 30, 2015 8:57:48 GMT
I truly find these thread depressing. This is my sport and I love it. Judge and producer bashing is absolutely not the answer nor the real crux of the problem, I don't think. I am not immune to some of the problems in the system, which I believe is deeply flawed and becoming more so. Some points for consideration: * not all judges are bent, most are not bent, some are * as above for competitors - it works both ways * some judges are simply not as knowledgable as others and perhaps struggle with some of the bigger classes * judging is not easy - try standing in the ring. Its tiring and its stressful. I have judged HOYS mini M&Ms and believe you me, you cannot see everything all of the time * showing is not a dressage test. A precise, 'correct' show will not always win nor should it, over a more pleasing but slightly imperfect show * some judges are not brave, so they stick with form * form is usually acquired by animals that tend to please quite a lot of people, so they probably deserve that form and finally, I believe that our (yes me as well!) obsession with qualifying for RIHS and HOYS is at the heart of the problem. I do so wish neither existed! Agree - except for the bit about wishing RIHS & HOYS didn't exist! I can still remember the thrill of the first time one of my children qualified for both those shows & Olympia (no flat M&Ms at HOYS then). Those moments live for ever - and we were HP for the record! Likewise when a homebred pony qualified for HOYS - watching him was far more nerve wracking than it had been watching any of my girls!. I actually think the thrill of qualifying is the best bit & I can completely understand why everyone wants to do it!
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Post by sageandonionagain on Jun 30, 2015 9:08:32 GMT
Just an observation and I must post my thoughts. Seems to me all these corrupt judges are not very clever because, if content is to be believed, they are rather gobby and their voices travel far and wide, they are constantly being overhead planning or confirming they are cheating. I have never heard a judge speak unless I went to ask their advice and if unsatisfied by our placing, what they wanted to see from our pony.
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Post by weekend on Jun 30, 2015 9:48:07 GMT
I was at Aintree this weekend and was shocked to see a judge pull a horse champion and is friends and rides the same horse as this person. Its sad showing is fixed and really you just have to laugh at what you know the result was going to be :/
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Post by lion on Jun 30, 2015 10:29:31 GMT
We all know what is going on, what we need is a independent body who can police these societies,any suggestions how, and if it is viable, no point in complaining on here or to the relevant societies.
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Post by Guest45 on Jun 30, 2015 10:48:24 GMT
Agree with Lion, can somebody somewhere help us to set up an independent body that doesn't have any internal connections who can rightly so police these issues in the hope of ironing them out or at least trying to. I think most of us come on hear to try and be heard- if one judge reads these comments and thinks 'these guys have a point actually' then its better than nothing for now
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Post by bigmama on Jun 30, 2015 11:27:44 GMT
I was at Aintree this weekend and was shocked to see a judge pull a horse champion and is friends and rides the same horse as this person. Its sad showing is fixed and really you just have to laugh at what you know the result was going to be :/ Any reason why you didn't put in a formal complaint to the show organisers on show day?
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Post by SillyGoose on Jun 30, 2015 12:02:11 GMT
Probably because they charge a stupid non refundable amount to complain and the organisers are as bent as the judges!
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Post by Lizzydrippin on Jun 30, 2015 12:20:40 GMT
As a former HOYS/RIHS level judge I have both suffered being right royally "stitched up" by my co-judge and their marks and been horrified at the reality of faults and lack of quality of "form" ponies. The latter I feel comes in the bracket of "bull***t baffles brains". They look good on the surface, they are produce & won alot, so must be good!
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Post by Philippa on Jun 30, 2015 12:21:36 GMT
I was at Aintree this weekend and was shocked to see a judge pull a horse champion and is friends and rides the same horse as this person. Its sad showing is fixed and really you just have to laugh at what you know the result was going to be :/ Any reason why you didn't put in a formal complaint to the show organisers on show day?I would ask the same question if it were so blatant. Also, the non refundable fee - surely there was more than one person unhappy about it, they could all have chipped in. No??
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Post by Guest45 on Jun 30, 2015 12:32:04 GMT
Where does a complaint get you? We need an external policing body whom has no connections but stipulates and follows ruling as said above.
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Post by Philippa on Jun 30, 2015 13:01:20 GMT
If showing gripes you that badly it's time to get out!!!!
I strive to beat the best, I like to think one day, I have a super pony and a talented child but I know I need to brush up in certain areas. We've been knocking on the door this year and am pleased with how things have panned out so far.
I respect the producers who, let's face it are paid to do their job well, of course they are going to be at the top of their game, it's their job for goodness sake!!
I wouldn't employ someone to work for me who was only half assed to do the job, no way hosay!!!!
You can learn a lot from watching the producers.
As has been mentioned earlier. There are more often than not 2 judges. One judges marks can influence the results hugely.
I'm not saying there isn't blatant judging but from what I've seen in my classes most have deserved their place.
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Post by Norris on Jun 30, 2015 13:06:31 GMT
It all comes down to HOYS not that special to qualify for anymore x
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Post by catkinasguest on Jun 30, 2015 13:11:25 GMT
yes janetbushell, I know exactly what you mean and have experienced all those same feelings, so perhaps a rash point made by me... but, I do think the qualifying bit is where a lot of the anxiety arises!
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Post by Guest45 on Jun 30, 2015 13:20:10 GMT
Sorry if my previous post came across the wrong way- no one is taking anything away from the producers - as said previously when they are riding a good animal and qualify them- well done to them for doing a grand job and bringing the best examples of the breed into the ring - we all know that certain ones will jump on anything and in away take the 'mickey' knowing they will qualify under a certain judge no matter what quality the animal is.
Bottom line is we need to iron out these occasions and lets get a height stick in the ring and help demonstrate true to type examples at these fabulous shows we all love to watch.
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Post by volatis on Jun 30, 2015 13:33:00 GMT
Volatis - I'm sure you intended to say - it DOES NEED (not 'does not') to be substantiated and not just heresay or assumption. . . . . Some of the comments on this post and other similar ones previously, make me wild. Please do NOT tar all Judges with the same brush. Do NOT tar all Professionals with the same brush. [/font][/i][/quote] Sorry yes - DOES NEED to be substantiated and cannot be hearsay or just bad sportsmanship
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Post by lion on Jun 30, 2015 13:54:54 GMT
I am HP and have a lot of respect for producers, I to have learned a lot from them, I still would like to compete on a level playing field,we as a family put a lot of work and money in to this hobby we enjoy,you only get out what you put in, we have been luck to qualify for HOYS, RIHS but if this blatant facey judging is allowed to carry on it will end up ruining this sport, especially for the HP competitors, who are the magority in most of the classes.
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Post by Guest45 on Jun 30, 2015 14:12:06 GMT
I am HP and have a lot of respect for producers, I to have learned a lot from them, I still would like to compete on a level playing field,we as a family put a lot of work and money in to this hobby we enjoy,you only get out what you put in, we have been luck to qualify for HOYS, RIHS but if this blatant facey judging is allowed to carry on it will end up ruining this sport, especially for the HP competitors, who are the magority in most of the classes. WELL SAID
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Post by welshiegirl on Jun 30, 2015 17:27:03 GMT
Maybe a points system should be introduced within the points system, HOYS, Olympia and RI have a certain number to deduct for fault, So for example napping -3 points Bucking. - 4 points Bolt- -3 points Wrong leg -4 points Change of leg -4 points Etc etc for flaws like that in the ridden section, So say my horse bucked in the gallop and changed her leg, I would automatically loose 8 points out of the possibly 50- doesn't necessarily mean she would get 42 / 50 but if set amounts have to be deducted it could work, aside from the fact it doesn't really mean it couldn't be fixed.
Just an idea!! However I doubt conformation could be worked like that .
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Post by CarolineNelson on Jun 30, 2015 17:49:38 GMT
Maybe a points system should be introduced within the points system, HOYS, Olympia and RI have a certain number to deduct for fault, So for example napping -3 points Bucking. - 4 points Bolt- -3 points Wrong leg -4 points Change of leg -4 points Etc etc for flaws like that in the ridden section, So say my horse bucked in the gallop and changed her leg, I would automatically loose 8 points out of the possibly 50- doesn't necessarily mean she would get 42 / 50 but if set amounts have to be deducted it could work, aside from the fact it doesn't really mean it couldn't be fixed. Just an idea!! However I doubt conformation could be worked like that . With respect, are you suggesting that to "BOLT" (ie: to run away!) is LESSER than to strike off in canter on the wrong canter lead?
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Post by welshiegirl on Jun 30, 2015 18:08:14 GMT
Maybe a points system should be introduced within the points system, HOYS, Olympia and RI have a certain number to deduct for fault, So for example napping -3 points Bucking. - 4 points Bolt- -3 points Wrong leg -4 points Change of leg -4 points Etc etc for flaws like that in the ridden section, So say my horse bucked in the gallop and changed her leg, I would automatically loose 8 points out of the possibly 50- doesn't necessarily mean she would get 42 / 50 but if set amounts have to be deducted it could work, aside from the fact it doesn't really mean it couldn't be fixed. Just an idea!! However I doubt conformation could be worked like that . With respect, are you suggesting that to "BOLT" (ie: to run away!) is LESSER than to strike off in canter on the wrong canter lead? No not all, I chose random numbers with no thought into which was worse at all to demonstrate my idea.
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Post by leevale on Jun 30, 2015 18:37:59 GMT
Maybe a points system should be introduced within the points system, HOYS, Olympia and RI have a certain number to deduct for fault, So for example napping -3 points Bucking. - 4 points Bolt- -3 points Wrong leg -4 points Change of leg -4 points Etc etc for flaws like that in the ridden section, So say my horse bucked in the gallop and changed her leg, I would automatically loose 8 points out of the possibly 50- doesn't necessarily mean she would get 42 / 50 but if set amounts have to be deducted it could work, aside from the fact it doesn't really mean it couldn't be fixed. Just an idea!! However I doubt conformation could be worked like that . I think we need to keep these ideas coming, but I would rather have a system that rewards the positives, otherwise an elegant, well balanced show, with a responsive horse in self carriage with a minor blip could easily be beaten by a fairly mediocre show. Personally, I would prefer the former to win. On another note, years ago the BSPS did winter qualifying classes with 50% of the marks for a simple dressage test and 50% of the marks for conformation. These were lovely classes to take part in and watch, a bit of a change from the norm, but they weren't showing classes.
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Post by livtom2 on Jul 1, 2015 8:05:03 GMT
I have a list of judges that are facey and I simply don't waste my money going under them!
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Post by Giveitatry on Jul 1, 2015 8:14:58 GMT
Just write a letter to the relevant society, don't expect a reply but most judges have to be answerable to complaints and if they receive enough it may just do the job - most societies don't automatically reinstate judges year after year
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Post by gardenia on Jul 1, 2015 11:02:00 GMT
It is very interesting to see that this thread has caused so much debate. Having shown both in hand and ridden over the past 30 years with considerable success - very often beating the producers it shows clearly that you can reach the top level no matter who you are. If you keep your head down and turn ponies out for either in hand or the ridden to be fit not fat and going obediently in a sweet mannerly fashion and the animal is a good example of its breed you cannot go far wrong.
For me personally, I would like to see far more "education days". I can remember the days when the local associations/societies would get together perhaps over lunch and have a talk whilst looking over members ponies. There is so much to learn and sometimes airing views and seeing things from another perspective is very helpful. Nothing is perfect but to strive for perfection is something we should all aim for. It is worrying that there seem to be very few younger judges who have good background knowledge coming onto the panels. If you talk to some of the older generation of judges quite often they came from backgrounds where they had hunted regularly or been involved in racehorses and that depth of knowledge has been invaluable.
If you watch racing - particularly the top level flat racing and scrutinise the animals walk around the paddock and evaluate their stride when they go down to post, dressage at the very top level and the difference between the harmony from the likes of Charlotte and Valero as opposed to the tension from some of the overseas combinations you can learn a huge amount. It is all relative, and judges need to be encouraged to do the "right thing" and the emphasis on fair, straight judging needs to be commended.
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Post by ponymum on Jul 1, 2015 15:39:00 GMT
Producers should not be allowed to judge- its a major conflict of interest TOTALLY AGREE
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Post by honeypot on Jul 1, 2015 15:57:30 GMT
There have been studies that should that you favour naturally what you are used to, you marry someone who tends to look like your self, in job interviews people who get jobs tend to mirror the interview panel, and the best one is kids from 'upper classes' get marked higher than so called 'lower class' even if their papers are actually better. So as humans we are all biased so when you judge anything you have to go against you natural prejudice, the trouble is when someone doesn't even realise that's fault and almost makes it a virtue. I've had a rosette I did not deserve just because the judge bred my ponies breed. Then you have the pro in the ring who actually knows more about it than the judge and gives them the look, 'I dare you', I've seen that and its intimidating. Sometimes when there are two judges and no mark sheet one judge will influence the decision, I have seen that to. I do not believe most judges go out to do a bad job, but knowledge of a breed does not make you a good judge, there is no objective scrutiny of their decisions, which lead to the judges decision is final no matter how wrong objectively the result is, and no one likes being told they are wrong. I was once told by a judge that showing is not a dressage test, that the whole way the pony goes, its action, confirmation and judging against the breed standard affected their judgement. Do you really want a pony to lose because its goes on the wrong leg where in every other respect it excels in every other way. From the side of the ring the wrong canter lead is easily spotted but a lot of ring side pundits do not seem to know whether the animal is over bent, does not move forward and does not have the action of the breed. What really upsets me is judges that offer to judge classes when they have not even basic knowledge of the breed or the breed standard, in fact some I have thought have not even bothered to read the schedule, I have witnessed some corkers. Its easy, get a b...dy book, and read the schedule properly before you go in the ring. Its hard to get good judges, I would rather have no prize money and perhaps a smaller rosette and pay the judge more and not just offer them a lunch,which half the time they are unable to eat and minim expenses in return for professional standards and accountability. But its just a hobby so why bother?
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Post by lion on Jul 2, 2015 16:20:42 GMT
This thread has made interesting reading, but there seems to be no solution to the fact there are facy judges out there, have we HP competitors just got to put up with it when we show, or we just vote with our feet.I know there is one facy judge at Staffordshire this week who I am refusing to go under in the MM HOYS classes.
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Post by snowman on Jul 3, 2015 7:33:21 GMT
This thread has made interesting reading, but there seems to be no solution to the fact there are facy judges out there, have we HP competitors just got to put up with it when we show, or we just vote with our feet.I know there is one facy judge at Staffordshire this week who I am refusing to go under in the MM HOYS classes. This is a very harsh comment, and is your bitter opinion ONLY, shame you can't comment under your own username!! Plus this comment is very unfair on the judges at NCPA Staffs, there are 3 different M and M Hoys sections - hence 6 judges and you are labelling them all IF YOU HAVE NOTHING NICE TO SAY, THEN SAY NOTHING AT ALL
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Post by weekenf on Jul 3, 2015 12:24:00 GMT
I was at Aintree this weekend and was shocked to see a judge pull a horse champion and is friends and rides the same horse as this person. Its sad showing is fixed and really you just have to laugh at what you know the result was going to be :/ Any reason why you didn't put in a formal complaint to the show organisers on show day?because it would be a waste of time the judge would say they had nothing to do with the said person but everyone knows they know each other and ride the same horse I have seen many pictures but they would twist it to there defence anyway
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