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Post by Spud44 on Jun 28, 2015 18:46:13 GMT
I agree with the very first post on this thread and am disappointed to say that the Chaps Hoys classes are some of the worst in this practice. The Royal Highland was an embarrassment to watch as are many other chaps hoys classes over the years. Shame on those involved! Is that really a necessary comment? As a regular steward of well over a decade at the Royal Highland (though not, for the last few years, in the 'Coloured' rings) we all 'work' unbelievably hard to ensure that all our competitors enjoy a great showing experience, win or lose. We even achieved good weather this time! So, what, please, is the gripe ? I do believe this may not be directed at the hospitality of the highland show or the people running it... Definitely more to do with the nudge nudge wink wink association ... Better known as chaps !! It was cringeworthy to watch all the friends who expected a return favour turn up yesterday !!! Lol
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Post by guest45 on Jun 29, 2015 8:13:06 GMT
Yes, I think you should have evidence. If you are going to criticise a judge, you need to substantiate this. You should look at the rules and regulations of the society where they simply must have a complaints procedure. Follow that as you would any other complaint, be polite, persistent and assertive.
As you say, you ALL know some judges that place a face despite faults. How many of you are complaining to the right people? My question must be why on earth you all continue to pay your subscription fees to affiliate, the huge costs that go along with preparing your pony for the ring, getting there and the class fee to walk away convinced the class was fixed (and that's what we are saying here) yet do nothing about it except come on here, facebook and elsewhere to find kindred spirits equally aggrieved and then go do it all over again. You need to get the problems sorted.
If the society disagree with your complaint, you will no doubt receive an answer as to why a pony that has taken a wrong leg in canter (not a huge fault in my opinion) has been placed.
I agree with above thread - we need to channel these complaints in the correct manner. We all know it goes on so if challenge it with supporting evidence then the judging can be investigated further- hopefully.
We have to save our sport/hobby/breed before it ends up that everyone is sticking a producer on an animal that is barely riding club standard!
Producers should only want to be seen on the best surely? However this certainly isn't always the case, I've seen so many home producers sat on quality this season and gone on unplaced.
I do think a measuring stick should be kept ringside as part of the confirmation if there is something that looks over height at first sight. The amount of ponies I've seen towering above mine- who is upto height- and being placed is bizarre- CLASSIC example of something not being TRUE TO TYPE of the breed!
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Post by joules on Jun 29, 2015 9:36:45 GMT
Totally agree with the above comments, we tried complaining to the right people a few years ago, we were told it would go before the society's comittee, the steward signed altered results in a HOYS qualifier not the judge, it just got washed under the carpet, these comittee members are only there to feather their own nest, we all know that, I really don't know the best way forward.
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Post by Guest45 on Jun 29, 2015 9:47:54 GMT
Maybe a signed petition would work?
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Post by nudgenudge on Jun 29, 2015 10:38:37 GMT
CHAPS HOYS classes have to be the worst of them all! It's quite frankly hilarious to watch and so obvious.
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Post by Guest45 on Jun 29, 2015 11:01:18 GMT
... I don't know the m&m's are easy to guess. The person expected to win may as well jump up and down and wave hello to the judge- its that obvious who they are going to pick sometimes- cheshire show this year was a perfect example of this in some classes!
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Post by maxandpaddy on Jun 29, 2015 11:10:39 GMT
It is frustrating and so many home produced people are starting to move away from showing - us included because there is no answer to it, it wont change. The judges are 'shock horror' horsey folk who more often than not own and show their own, breed their own, or even as seems to be a fairly new trend actual Producers themselves. The ones included in the facey judging loop arnt ever going to complain, and the smaller competitors (pardon the description, again I include us in that) arnt taken seriously even if they do complain to the relevant society's
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Post by totally agree on Jun 29, 2015 11:12:16 GMT
i totally agreee with Sageandonion and guest45, especially the height stick at the entrance of the ring, quite simply if you are over then you are not allowed in, am fed up of seeing over height animals (sometimes a full hand over) do really well at the expense of a true to type animal. And no, the argument that a smaller animal if true to type will do well simply doesn't happen - the majority of the time judges go for the bigger ones! This is a big bug bear of mine.
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Post by xxBBxx on Jun 29, 2015 11:23:18 GMT
A smaller producer I know told me that they don't touch CHAPS and will not produce coloureds - it's reputation is renowned for being dodgy when HOYS qualifiers are involved.
We have given up showing all together, got sick of spending money, time and effort to see the same people win time and again - daughter became completely disillusioned with the whole thing ...
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Post by Rules broken? on Jun 29, 2015 11:30:58 GMT
Please can someone come up with a way that the societies can deal with this sort of thing that could be may be put to them as they seem unable to do anything themselves. I've thought of this a lot but stuggle to come up with a workable solution.
For example the scenario with the Royal Highland and Aintree coloureds? What rule is broken or what rule can be introduced that would be broken to stop this?
Stopping people riding or producing and judging the same sections may be, but then they would just do it across the sections as they judge on lots of panels, they would do a favour in the M&Ms in return for one in the hunters for example.
The friends situation is also a hard one, I think we just have our noses rubbed in it more now we have facebook. Before people like me who do not know a lot of people in showing did not realise what friendships and connections existed, but now we see a photo of judge and competitor out for a meal or at each others party with a comment such as 'out with my bestie - mwah!' and then the next week one is judging the other, and putting them up to win.
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Post by Philippa on Jun 29, 2015 11:56:18 GMT
They use height sticks and weighing scales in dog classes where heights and weights are breed standard!!!!!!
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Post by Showing15 on Jun 29, 2015 12:00:01 GMT
Personally, I don't think it's ever going to change! You pay for your classes, prepare you pony and put yourself in an open arena to be critiqued...there's a scoring system, but based on what? It's the judges opinion, whilst we may not like what has been placed top the judge does - what Society is going to question that? I don't agree with it but that's showing for you.
I agree with the post above, I think social media has a lot to do with it...years gone by you would have to pick up the phone, write a letter or speak to someone face to face.
I prefer to do a variety of stuff with my pony, showing week in week out would be soul destroying.
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Cheshire County Spectator
Guest
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Post by Cheshire County Spectator on Jun 29, 2015 12:38:32 GMT
Totally agree with the above comments, we tried complaining to the right people a few years ago, we were told it would go before the society's comittee, the steward signed altered results in a HOYS qualifier not the judge, it just got washed under the carpet, these comittee members are only there to feather their own nest, we all know that, I really don't know the best way forward. We just avoid judges who we feel are facey, if everyone does this, in the end they will only have their friends to judge as someone said earlier in this thread. We have always found the vast majority of judges to be fair, and just accept that a few are not going to like the same types as us, and a small minority actually try to be fair, but to be quite frank, haven't got a clue, even when it comes down to basic rules, like whose card they should be signing - I have had personal experience of this happening, this season. Complaining is pointless if you want to carry on showing as the very people you want to complain about tend to either be on the committees anyway, or have friends there.
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Post by Guest45 on Jun 29, 2015 13:04:10 GMT
Agree with Phillipa here- Dog showing is much stricter than horse showing- they do need to be a certain height and weight to even be considered 'upto breed standard'- yet huge horses/ponies over height are becoming most popular- why?
The scoring system is based on way of going and confirmation- or should be?
So any horses/ponies that are OBVIOUSLY over height for breed standard, riddled with confirmation faults (dishing, splints, platting, short cannons etc etc) should be DROPPED.
Any horses/ponies that wrong leg, don't perform well under the ridden judge should also be DROPPED.
FORGET WHO'S ON BOARD and lets all be fair in this sport!
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Post by HomeProducer on Jun 29, 2015 13:08:48 GMT
Exactly agree with Cheshire county spectator here, if we all stop going under these facey judges and support the fairer ones hopefully the show organisers will continue to hire the judges that bring in the most entries and the least complaints for them- makes logical sense! I don't understand why judges try so hard to get on these panels and then just pull in a face/friend in top!?
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Post by ohnonotagain on Jun 29, 2015 13:21:39 GMT
Agree with Phillipa here- Dog showing is much stricter than horse showing- they do need to be a certain height and weight to even be considered 'upto breed standard'- yet huge horses/ponies over height are becoming most popular- why? The scoring system is based on way of going and confirmation- or should be? So any horses/ponies that are OBVIOUSLY over height for breed standard, riddled with confirmation faults (dishing, splints, platting, short cannons etc etc) should be DROPPED. Any horses/ponies that wrong leg, don't perform well under the ridden judge should also be DROPPED. FORGET WHO'S ON BOARD and lets all be fair in this sport!
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Post by ohnonotagain on Jun 29, 2015 13:26:26 GMT
Sorry but I dont agree that short cannons especially in pony classes should be deemed a conformation fault.
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Post by Lankylass on Jun 29, 2015 14:24:19 GMT
Sorry but I think the height issue will always be flawed.... Take pony for measurement it's allowed to relax n settle before measurement is taken ....... Then same pony is taken to a county show with several distractions... It's on its toes.... N your complaining it's over height ..... It's not us who makes the rules :/ Think about it ......
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Post by Guest45 on Jun 29, 2015 14:44:15 GMT
Sorry I don't agree lankylass- so when its relaxed and falling asleep in the line up of a large class and towering over the upto height ponies- what is the answer then?
A measuring stick should be in the ring with the confirmation judge for them to use as and when required as part of the confirmation phase- if its over the breed specification then it gets marked accordingly down!
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Post by nudgenudge on Jun 29, 2015 14:56:48 GMT
I also don't understand why these judges aren't embarrassed by what they put through to HOYS or win their classes - its a reflection of them and their prowess as a judge and their knowledge. I have overheard a judge this year saying that they 'would do them a favour because she's done me one' and 'if they bring it under me I'll give them a ticket'. You can't complain because it's the same judges year in year out and they're all friends so you'd ostracise yourself and put yourself in jeopardy.
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Post by Philippa on Jun 29, 2015 14:58:10 GMT
Sorry I don't agree lankylass- so when its relaxed and falling asleep in the line up of a large class and towering over the upto height ponies- what is the answer then? A measuring stick should be in the ring with the confirmation judge for them to use as and when required as part of the confirmation phase- if its over the breed specification then it gets marked accordingly down! I have to agree, if you show a dachshund and its over the weight or height when its in the ring then it gets thrown out!! Simples. Dogs get excited too.
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Post by maddiesmum on Jun 29, 2015 15:14:11 GMT
Yep I'm with you on this one, I mean yes when excited they can looked pumped and bigger etc But not sure excitement swells the skeleton?? Lol I'm pretty sure my pony is 11.2hh whatever time you measure her....I would be all for measuring on the day and more emphasis on overall picture rather than being up to height.
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Post by totally agree on Jun 29, 2015 15:16:45 GMT
Until something is done by the societies this will just carry on and it will be the same old faces at HOYS each year, it is such a shame that the hard working people who pay their entry fees just aren't given a look in. And yes, people will say its the producers job to qualify etc. but what about us that work hard 5 days per week to pay for this and know that you have a pony capable of qualifying but aren't competing on a level playing field?
Perhaps this is one reason this year that class numbers are diminishing. Think we may look at dressage next year and not waste any more time and money.
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Post by volatis on Jun 29, 2015 16:06:14 GMT
People who have a genuine complaint that a judge is heard to be saying they will be doing someone a favour or putting a competitor up to qualify in return for the same, please notify HOYS, if it is genuine. We have removed judges from the HOYS panel in the past for this sort of behaviour, but it does not to be substantiated and not hearsay or assumption. Showing is a small community and therefore it is inevitable that people will know each other, but the bets horse should always win on the day, regardless of the rider or producer. A lot of producers really know how to get the best out of a horse in terms of its training and production and ringcraft but when all things are equal, a good judge will put up and unknown or an amateur if their horse goes best and has the best conformation.
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Post by CarolineNelson on Jun 29, 2015 17:41:02 GMT
People who have a genuine complaint that a judge is heard to be saying they will be doing someone a favour or putting a competitor up to qualify in return for the same, please notify HOYS, if it is genuine. We have removed judges from the HOYS panel in the past for this sort of behaviour, but it does not to be substantiated and not hearsay or assumption. Showing is a small community and therefore it is inevitable that people will know each other, but the bets horse should always win on the day, regardless of the rider or producer. A lot of producers really know how to get the best out of a horse in terms of its training and production and ringcraft but when all things are equal, a good judge will put up and unknown or an amateur if their horse goes best and has the best conformation. Volatis - I'm sure you intended to say - it DOES NEED (not 'does not') to be substantiated and not just heresay or assumption. . . . . Some of the comments on this post and other similar ones previously, make me wild. Please do NOT tar all Judges with the same brush. Do NOT tar all Professionals with the same brush. When the chips are down, it is Skill, Showmanship (therefore Artistry - Flair), Precision, Experience from the Showman - and Type, Quality, Presence, correct Con FORMation and Action from the animal which should win classes. By the way, (to the poster above) - a "Short Cannon Bone" on an equine is definitely NOT a fault. Ignorance is not always bliss! If avarice (that's greed & jealousy, to the uninitiated) could be removed from 'society' in general, (as well as in the small circle of equine showing) the world would be a better place. Edited to add: As for the so-called "Golden Ticket". That needs to be EARNED. Respected. It is not given out by divine right to every competitor - or the magical title "Horse/Pony of the Year" would be defunct!!
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jakkibag
Full Member
Urwins Tom Boy
Posts: 201
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Post by jakkibag on Jun 29, 2015 17:45:21 GMT
At the Fell society breed show all ponies are measured on the showground before classes start and all are checked for false hair as per breed society rules, there's certainly some different looking ponies in the classes compared to what they look like the rest of the season! I can't imagine it would work with the volume of horses at other big shows but works for the fells!
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Post by catkin on Jun 30, 2015 6:42:47 GMT
I truly find these thread depressing. This is my sport and I love it. Judge and producer bashing is absolutely not the answer nor the real crux of the problem, I don't think. I am not immune to some of the problems in the system, which I believe is deeply flawed and becoming more so. Some points for consideration: * not all judges are bent, most are not bent, some are * as above for competitors - it works both ways * some judges are simply not as knowledgable as others and perhaps struggle with some of the bigger classes * judging is not easy - try standing in the ring. Its tiring and its stressful. I have judged HOYS mini M&Ms and believe you me, you cannot see everything all of the time * showing is not a dressage test. A precise, 'correct' show will not always win nor should it, over a more pleasing but slightly imperfect show * some judges are not brave, so they stick with form * form is usually acquired by animals that tend to please quite a lot of people, so they probably deserve that form and finally, I believe that our (yes me as well!) obsession with qualifying for RIHS and HOYS is at the heart of the problem. I do so wish neither existed!
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Post by viking on Jun 30, 2015 8:21:42 GMT
I truly find these thread depressing. This is my sport and I love it. Judge and producer bashing is absolutely not the answer nor the real crux of the problem, I don't think. I am not immune to some of the problems in the system, which I believe is deeply flawed and becoming more so. Some points for consideration: * not all judges are bent, most are not bent, some are * as above for competitors - it works both ways * some judges are simply not as knowledgable as others and perhaps struggle with some of the bigger classes * judging is not easy - try standing in the ring. Its tiring and its stressful. I have judged HOYS mini M&Ms and believe you me, you cannot see everything all of the time * showing is not a dressage test. A precise, 'correct' show will not always win nor should it, over a more pleasing but slightly imperfect show * some judges are not brave, so they stick with form * form is usually acquired by animals that tend to please quite a lot of people, so they probably deserve that form and finally, I believe that our (yes me as well!) obsession with qualifying for RIHS and HOYS is at the heart of the problem. I do so wish neither existed! Well said.
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Post by maxandpaddy on Jun 30, 2015 8:29:15 GMT
Should Producers judge?
An honest question not an attack on Producers, but surely its an area open to conflict? I realise they cant put their own in the class they judge, but its quite often a class they are a regular part part of, which surely makes it a grey area and opens them up to here-say and accusations?
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Post by Guest45 on Jun 30, 2015 8:29:54 GMT
I truly find some of the judging decisions depressing. When a friend is placed or a face (whom everyone outside the ring can predict is going to win before the judging commences!) -no one is saying all judges are like this- we are simply saying the ones who are aren't always picking the best pony on the day and so it isn't fair -if some judges aren't as knowledgeable then further training and assessment maybe needed to help support them- only the judge will know themselves if they feel they need this support so most of the responsibility lies with them to speak to their relevant society -Judging is tiring and stressful- we all know this- but you 'applied for the job' and us competitors go through alot of stress and nerves also as well as the time we put in at home and money - to then predict the winner- its ruining the sport we all love! -Yes a show isn't a dressage test- a short neat show should be enough - the judge shouldn't have to stand and watch each competitor for 5 mins - especially during larger classes! -Part of a judges job is being brave- its like applying for a job as a boss and then not having confidence to guide his team - why do they stick to the comfort of picking the usual winners? -Form is usually acquired by who is sat on the animal, therefore making it known to all judges. Not often is a home produced animal seen to please a lot of people because they don't know the pony well enough nor the rider!
Agree some people are obsessed with getting the golden ticket but I think the majority just want the judging to be fair as we all put a lot of effort into the sport.
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