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Post by sue83599 on Oct 13, 2009 20:54:46 GMT
I’d also like to comment on the marking of the small coloured class – it was obvious to everyone that in no way did Cassius do a 9 mark better show than any other pony. By giving such a wide margin high score the ride judge was clearly making sure that there was only one possible winner and her marking therefore would override the marks given by the conformation judge, John Giliver who is a very respected judge and must be disappointed that his judging became irrelevant. Biased judging is a disgrace. Showing is an expensive sport which takes hard work and dedication. CHAPS as a society should endeavour to provide fair judges and yes ‘dukeyboy’ if competitors and followers of the sport feel aggrieved they should be able to complain officially. The major problem at the moment is that the people we want to complain about are running the society! Nobody is disputing the fact that Cassius is a lovely pony, the issue here is that the other competitors weren’t given a fair chance.
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Post by sundance on Oct 13, 2009 21:03:40 GMT
I agree with you Sue83599 and others that by giving such a wide margin of marks difference there could be only one outcome. This has been seen several times before in qualifiers over the years, much to the despair of everyone else.
But what can/should CHAPS do about it? This is a genuine question.
No rules were broken so there is no case to answer in that respect.
HOYS choose the judges for their show, not CHAPS, infact in previous years they have even chosen judges who were not on the CHAPS panel.
I would imagine if questioned the judge would say she did think Cassius did give a show 9 marks better than anyone else.
Please can you suggest what should be done?
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Post by drenrowstud on Oct 13, 2009 21:09:31 GMT
this happend years ago with the coniies and new forests both judges seamed determind to give low marks to the other favaorites the surprise was a total outsider won and everyone was totally gobsmacked it was a pony that got regulary beaten at local shows too yet it won at hoys . im not saying it was horrid im just saying there were plenty better examples of the breed in the class on the day .
i did think some of the conformation marks given to some of the fully graded stallions were a little harsh and kind of made a total joke of chaps insisting that stallions are all graded . why bother if the judge is going to insult them with some of the marks that were dished out .
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Post by sue83599 on Oct 13, 2009 21:10:14 GMT
Perhaps CHAPS themselves should review said judge's HOYS panel status if enough people make their disatisfaction known.
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Post by jinja on Oct 14, 2009 6:25:45 GMT
drenrowstud the example you have given is not the same as this situation as there was only one judge who tried to manipulate the outcome and that was Xanthe Barker Wilde.
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Post by extraforelock on Oct 14, 2009 7:29:56 GMT
Unless certain situations such as this are noted and acted upon 'in house' then we will do what we have always done and that is make a note of which judges are fair and which we don't go under, and that will be that. If nothing else can be done, CHAPS members must vote with their appearances and support the qualifiers in which fair judging prevails. A fair crack of the whip is all everybody wants. The problem here is that this was the final! The show horse worlds biggest stage.... Everyone took their chance, but was it a fair chance? The many comments on this forum seem to suggest that most people thought absolutely not.
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Post by dukeyboy on Oct 14, 2009 10:36:38 GMT
ok so heres a question to everyone.WHO HAS OFFICIALLY COMPLAINED THEN?
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Post by extraforelock on Oct 14, 2009 10:58:52 GMT
As Sundance suggested, to complain may be nigh on impossible as there have been no rules broken. That does not mean this has not been noted by a vast amount of people, and will not be forgotten.
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Post by lzbrdly on Oct 14, 2009 15:06:59 GMT
My friend complained in writting and was told that chaps will be looking at changing some of their rules for next year i hope they get things sorted.
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Post by dukeyboy on Oct 14, 2009 15:10:49 GMT
yes i know what you mean extraforelock but having recently complained myself about a similar situation, CHAPS did write back to me saying that rule 7 of the CHAPS handbook will be strengthened and reworded for the future, so I do think that the more complaints they get about situations like this the better the rewording might be? What harm can it do?
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Post by Pony-Nutt on Oct 14, 2009 15:44:28 GMT
Is it possible to email them with your complaint? That would make it easier for anyone wanting to complain. The competitors themselves will be reluctant to put their name to a complaint for fear of being made to pay for it next season by the dodgy judges friends. For this reason, other people who saw what happened should complain on their behalf. Lets face it, we pay enough for the tickets, surely we want to watch a fair show and not simply a few bent people clearly having their turn at back scratching?
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Post by dukeyboy on Oct 14, 2009 17:00:10 GMT
No Miss Marple you can't complain by email.it has to be a written letter by a CHAPS member and it has to be sent recorded delivery.I dont understand why you wouldnt want to put your name to a complaint.if the judges are dodgy then they aren't gunna place you anyway are they.By complaining officially may just get rid of the dodgy ones?
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Post by shakespeare2 on Oct 14, 2009 17:02:30 GMT
I am glad this issue is being discussed on an open forum. I hope it is allowed to continue as they are usually closed by mods by this stage.
I predicted that this would happen a few years ago. It makes me angry when people consistently qualify their horses/ponies for HOYS at Shows which they involved with organisation of the show. It also makes me angry when certain individuals qualify for HOYS under people who they are very close friends with. Last year a senior member of the CHAPS Council qualified a pony under a fellow CHAPS Council Member and although the pony in question that qualified wasn't on the judges yard another pony belonging to her was! It is completely unfair to the decent honest people who do not basically CHEAT! Like Sue said, you are complaining TO the very people who you are complaining about so what is the point!? And has ANYONE ever read the minutes from CHAPS AGMs? Having read them believe me anyone who questions them or confronts peoples motives just has the p*ss taken out of them.
CHAPS did make a little progress last year when they introduced the rule that an Independent Panel of Non-Showing Council Members chooses the judges for the Regional HOYS Qualifiers.
All you will get if you complain about this is NO RULES HAVE BEEN BROKEN! So perhaps it is necessary for the membership to RECOMMEND a set of rules to make this FAIR? Submit it to the council at the AGM and try to get it approved?
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Post by shakespeare2 on Oct 14, 2009 17:05:56 GMT
I also think you have to have at least 2 complaints from competitors within the class for a complaint to be even looked at?
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Post by Admin on Oct 14, 2009 17:12:38 GMT
I am glad this issue is being discussed on an open forum. I hope it is allowed to continue as they are usually closed by mods by this stage. Not always the case. Only when the thread along with its contents start to get out of hand. Or a valid complaint is received.
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Post by arrogorn on Oct 14, 2009 17:22:13 GMT
I can not comment on the marks for the shows as I was not there however I was shocked they was this huge difference at HOYS. I can understand if a horse or pony does not perform under the stress and obtains a poor mark but at this level 9 marks is huge when all the top ponies did fantastic shows.
I also look at the other class marks in interest, how can a horse get such a poor conf mark when it quite clearly had decent conf at the qualifier to win the class. Are the Hoys classes judged differently, are they lokoing for some thing different in conf?
I understand what has been said about judges doing friends favours and have found the coloureds to be the worst across the board. I do make notes of which judges like us and which dont however I can not travel the country far and wide, week in week out chasing best judges for us. I like to support our local qualifying shows but feel hard done to paying around £40 per class when I know if my horse went foor perfect and everything else came in and chucked the judge off we would still not win, and you can normally predict some of your winners when you see who is judging at the start of the season. It is such an achievement to qual for HOYS and to get placed is amazing, well done to all of those people that have done it with no connections and can honestly say its the hard work that has paid off as surely this is what its all about.
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Post by dukeyboy on Oct 14, 2009 17:28:33 GMT
oh and if anyone is going to complain they need to do it within 10 days of the event.so better get writing?
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Post by Pony-Nutt on Oct 14, 2009 17:31:47 GMT
Apparently one of the judges other winners is by her own stallion! Work that one out.
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Post by dukeyboy on Oct 14, 2009 17:36:55 GMT
oh yes Miss Marple I heard that too.surely that is against the rules?
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Post by ponies4me on Oct 14, 2009 17:58:40 GMT
if the marks are that wide surely the society should pick up on it and question the judge as to why?
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r.e.d
Junior Member
Posts: 180
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Post by r.e.d on Oct 14, 2009 18:24:38 GMT
Apparently one of the judges other winners is by her own stallion! Work that one out. BUT, it was a worthy winner IMO.
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Post by dukeyboy on Oct 14, 2009 18:41:54 GMT
ha ha ha that was well funny dolsey
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r.e.d
Junior Member
Posts: 180
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Post by r.e.d on Oct 14, 2009 18:46:35 GMT
Well it wasn't meant to be. Most other ponies did something wrong in their shows (apart from a select few) and that didn't (I have it on video!) Did think it was outshone in the championship though by the Brookfarm pony.
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Post by kidside on Oct 14, 2009 18:47:23 GMT
I am also sure you have to put your name on the complaint or it will not be heard, this info is supposed to be kept confidential though?
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Post by kidside on Oct 14, 2009 18:52:22 GMT
Apparently one of the judges other winners is by her own stallion! Work that one out. Apparently its not classed as financial gain, I was shocked it was allowed to compete but if its allowed well??, it was the NNP winner, but to be fair this pony is a consistant winner I did not see the class so can't comment but it has many wins under its belt including a previous HOYS win
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Post by Pony-Nutt on Oct 14, 2009 19:29:04 GMT
Yes it might be kept confidential officially but then the powers that be in CHAPS penalise you next time you show under them. You end up propping the line up even if last time they saw it it was first.
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Post by Pony-Nutt on Oct 14, 2009 20:47:30 GMT
Yes if everyone who is into fair competition sticks together.
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Post by drenrowstud on Oct 14, 2009 21:48:13 GMT
drenrowstud the example you have given is not the same as this situation as there was only one judge who tried to manipulate the outcome and that was Xanthe Barker Wilde. hmm not so sure about that i think giving 15 out of 40 to a fully graded stallion is questionable and is sure to have a big effect on its chances , lets face it if you hadnt seen the animal and known it had passed a full vetting and stallion grading inspection you would think its conformation bust be very diar indeed . lets face it to get 15 out of 40 id be expecting to see a roach backed ewe necked cow hocked goose rumped disaster on legs . not the stallion the mark was giiven too he was quite a nice stamp actually .
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Post by jinja on Oct 15, 2009 7:07:02 GMT
I do not know why the pony was given a low mark but it was not to stop it winning the class as the other judge also marked it very low.
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Post by foxylady on Oct 15, 2009 7:19:46 GMT
I not sure why everyone is choosing to focus on the ride judges marks I have yet to see the perfect horse or pony but to get 40/40 for conformation the judge must have this was it !!!!!!!
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