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Post by stormyskies on Oct 15, 2009 10:56:19 GMT
i feel i have to comment on the stallion given 15 out of 40 as i cannot see how for the life of me it is possible!! How can a stallion that has passed vettings and gradings with 2 societies, as well as won his HOYS qualifier, suddenly only have 15 out of 40 for confirmation? ?? This has truly astounded me!! I can understand ride marks changing due to tension/nerves etc, but a horse is how a horse is!! And this stallion will have no difference in confirmation to when it went through 2 gradings and a HOYS qualifier. So something has to be amiss there. I have seen the stallion in question and it is a lovely stamp of a heavy gypsy cob pony. It produces winninf offspring and is successful in the show ring - an amazing feat for him if he has confirmation worth 15 out of 40!!!!!
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pimms
Full Member
Posts: 295
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Post by pimms on Oct 15, 2009 14:34:20 GMT
I am thrilled to not have a coloured this year, i feel relieved that i sold up last year as the whole 'chaps situation' has got out of hand. all the judges, show secretaries etc are all friends. you cant take the perfection away from lacey and pied piper. i was told a handful of times when in the fylde area who would win due to who the judge was and its pathetic if thats what you ve got to do to win........... be friend the judge. also judges should not be allowed to compete at the championship shows, its ridiculous. nobody dares not to place them as they might be a back hander another day. its so sad that the fun has been taken away from it. we all know out of that class who gives an outstanding ride, shame none of them had the chance too close to winning.
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Post by qbc on Oct 15, 2009 15:26:17 GMT
Having seen the marks and know several of the true traditionals very well, I think it is obvious that the judges would not recognised a good gypsy cob if it were shoved down their throats.
The stallion given the appalling mark is a typical wide, very hairy prized by the gypsies type.
To compare a traditional like for like to a native is never going to work. The trads are a more rough type - they don't have the blood that is in the natives that given them a more refined and flashier look.
Ditto the show cobs - they are smart, compact, different way of going and compared to them, the trads look a bit scruffy.
I love gypsy cobs - I have them and I do know what the gypsies like and what is valued and they are the ones who put them together.
Having been told by one judge that my chap it too long in the leg to be a decent cob, I sometimes could weep - he is not a show cob, he never will be, a good gypsy cob and a good show cob are very different and you can't compare them
I am wondering how long it will be until those with the true gypsy cob give up going to HOYS to be consistently put down against the natives and show cobs.
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Post by green on Oct 15, 2009 15:32:37 GMT
Perhaps someone should email this thread to chaps. I think with classes being mixed there will always be a judges fav type breed etc, i hate seeing the the large section of mixed show cobs with the native trad types, seeing the line up of mainly cobs and the real hairys down the line or unplaced
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Post by beckylock on Oct 15, 2009 16:01:38 GMT
I have been looking at this all day and have not been 100% if I should post. I am the owner and rider of the home produce stallion that got 15 for his con and 28 for his ride. I was so happy after his show and so many people stopped me to say what a fab show he did. It did have 1 very small blip but I am not sure the judge could see it. Tho you can on my video my OH did for me. ;D This is him doing his show. I am still trying to not let all this get to me tho it is very hard. www.youtube.com/watch?v=MkLkjQFmdWQAs for the conformation. When you are 13.3hh and have 14-15inches of bone and so much feather that he can take 4hr to get ready for a show. I can understand some judges dont get him. But I have been very lucky with him this year and have had many championships from him. He has a new job now of breeding me a HOYS pony ;D ;D He is also my one in a million pony and no judge can tell me any different he was to me the best pony in the ring... Defo a sad mum moment but very true in my eyes. ;D ;D ;D Well done to everyone that went to HOYS.
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Post by qbc on Oct 15, 2009 16:24:36 GMT
Becky I could have cried when I saw the score - it was an insult to the breed - why not say all gypsy cobs are sh*t traveller horses not fit to be at HOYS? For me this is what it looks like from where I stand. He is a lovely example of years of selective breeding and something you can be proud to show as a gypsy cob.
Toby didn't do a huge amount better, nor did any of the true gypsy cobs - a disgrace that they can't get judges who know what to look for and recognise what a gypsy cob is - they will never be natives or show cobs and cannot be compared to them but judged as their own type.
Maybe a traditional gypsy cob society should be formed that really works for the breed - both solid and coloureds to get them judged correctly and recognised for what they are.
Again well done for getting there - and don't let fools who don't know what they are looking at ruin your experience.
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Post by jinja on Oct 15, 2009 16:34:04 GMT
sadly the conformation mark is not only for conformation it is also for type, and if the judge on the day prefer one type over another they do tend to give higher marks to the types they like. As long as they are all in together that is what will happen it is unavoidable, although I have to say not all judges prefer the natives. That is why CHAPS champs are great because they seperate them. Becky lock Just watched your video an I thought you did a good show well done.
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Post by minnies on Oct 15, 2009 17:32:46 GMT
hi, becky i am so glad you can put into perspective the way the showing world is? and just enjoy the moment in your own way , we have quite a strange season with comments on how you get his featheres so curly , oh he is quite well schooled for one one of them ? strange comments like that ? he is however prob one of the "" strongest "" hairies out there as trends have gone for less hair possibly as they are so difficult to get ready , i personally know that you know how hard some people at chaps work to try and make it as fair as possible but for all of you out there , its not always that easy , the council are voted on by the membership ? the existing council have to accept the nominiees and the result of the voting slips so maybe members themslves should think more seriously about nominees and the votes they give , i rest my case , but please dont tar everyone with the same brush , congrates to ALL who qual for hoys in any class it is one of the biggest equestrian events in the world and those of you who were sucessfull you have an excuse to be permanantly pis--d for the rest of the year !! well thats my excuse anyway regards to all and bring on 2010
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Post by qbc on Oct 15, 2009 17:48:08 GMT
Funny you should say about the hair, I wish my chap had more than he does but his is very fine and silky so part of him is correct. The more hair they have, the more value is placed on a gypsy horse, of course it is part of the package, but no matter how perfect the horse, if it does not have the hair, it is not considered good to breed from.
I would hate to see the day when the only "traditionals" in the ring are not the good true hairy gypsy cob, but crossed with natives to get less hair, lighter bone and maybe more attractive to what the judge thinks a gypsy cob should be.
Maybe judges should be more educated as to what a gypsy cob type is - the true people who know the breed - the gypsy breeders would highly value Becky's chap and would not give more than a couple of hundred for a lot of the "show" types we now see.
Long live the hairy gypsy cob!
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Post by stormyskies on Oct 15, 2009 18:02:05 GMT
well said!! I think Becky's little man would be worth a small fortune with that amount of bone and feather to someone who knows a true gypsy breed.
as the owner of a traditional about to come out under saddle next year, i have to say i am dubious about it. He is over 14.2hh so will be competing mainly against show cobs, who are beautiful beautiful animals, but incredibily different to a traditional.
Only in coloured classes, as far as i can think of and correct me if i am wrong, is there such variety. In other classes like hacks, riding horses, shp etc, you would never see such a varied difference - from one horse having a mane to his knees and the horse stood next to him having no mane at all and the next one having a mane 3 or 4 inches long. Surely the nct classes need to be spilt somehow. Judging by the entries in some classes this year i think there is sufficient interest in the coloured horse to have a seperate native class, a seperate show cob class and a seperate traditional class, with very very clear guidlines as to what constitutes a native, a traditional or a show cob. Am sure most people who show in nct classes would welcome this.
As well as judges who know what a proper hairy gypsy cob is and can appreciate its areas of strength. Although i do feel i need to add i have shown under several excellent CHAPS judges this year who clearly knew what they were looking for and how to compare the different types.
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Post by qbc on Oct 15, 2009 18:08:03 GMT
Yep I am in the larger hairy class and whilst my boy is normally the smallest he can hold his own if I get the right judge.
Some of the BSPA judges do know what they are looking at, and this year at the WCC one complimented me on Stinky as having the classic calm and steady nature that the gypsy cob should have and said it was so sad that people were trying to get them fired up and flashy looking. A bucking and pulling traditional is not correct - they should get on with the job and be able to be handled by anyone.
I would love to see the classes split, but do wonder if it will ever happen. I would rather see both tall and small traditionals together than the current native/cob/traditional split.
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Post by dukeyboy on Oct 15, 2009 18:35:53 GMT
Pimms, straight to the point that was.well done.brill.only wish I had done the same and sold up before this year began.thanks for saying it as it is.
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Post by drenrowstud on Oct 15, 2009 19:00:03 GMT
if we dont support the propper traditionals there probably wont be any coloured naties in the future , lets face it most of the native types are a m&m crossed with a true traditional , the majority of native types arnt homozygous for colour and with the new silly rules on verified parentage for grading stallions chaps might end up putting them selves out of a job if they discourage by poor show placings the traditionals ..
some of the best gypsy horses have a pedigree but nothing on paper .
we come across predudice a lot in m&m classes it seems there is an unwritten rule that if the judge breeds hairies ie; not welsh they never put a welsh up in a championship yet a welsh judge may well put up a non welsh if they think its nice and moves well
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Post by haylage on Oct 15, 2009 19:19:20 GMT
I have read this thread with interest, and I was not going to comment, for 2 reasons, I dont have a coloured, and I dont really no anything about the way they are judged, but I breed welsh B ponies. Conformation and type are just that, a pony has good comformation or it has not, it is true to type or not, there are no in betweens. As for way of going, well we all have over mind set on this one, some like, some dont. Ok that said, I have looked at the marks, and I must say I am gob smaked!!!! I was not at HOYs to see these classes but maybe that gives me a better outsiders view... no one is perfect, but we have a perfect score, such a wide range of marks that would make anyone with half a brain wonder if the whole thing was decided before hand !, and to top it all a lot of people who feel the same. Maybe its time that CHAPs got its house in order, it appears to have some problems with it is rule book regarding judging. I comes across as not being 'very clean' I will just add that I know Chantilly Lace, she is a lovely mare, infact she and my stallion hacked together many times, her way of going is a dream to behold, her temp is lovely, her comformation is as close to perfect as you will see in a horse, coloured or not, I know because I have stood next to her, mucked her out and groomed her, and my last word on this matter is ........ 'In my opinion, for what its worth, is that she was robbed'
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Post by tamba on Oct 15, 2009 19:28:45 GMT
How on earth can a horse get 60 out of 60 for ride and 40 out of 40 for conformation??!
Is just doesn't work - I remember at HOYS last year the judge in the ISRT was amazed at herself for giving the winning pony 59 out of 60 for ride, saying she had never marked so highly before.
I don't think any judge out there can say that a horse in front of them is perfect in either performance or conformation.
This is the first time in all my years of showing that TWO judges have said a horse is perfect.
This is not a bitter post towards the "perfect" horse. I happen to like him very very much.
I am aiming this towards the judges!
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Post by fmm on Oct 15, 2009 19:46:39 GMT
I am pleased that you do not dislike Dinger - as his part owner I feel there is a lot to like about him. Interestingly, because we are not used to having marks, we rarely if ever check to see what marks he got in a class and therefore, we have no idea how he has been marked by other judges during the year. From recollection, he has won every CHAPS class he has done this year in his category and been champion. I think he has also won all his BSPA classes in his category as well, and either been champion or reserve - so has had a lot of judges who feel that he is a good horse.
Not having spoken to the judges, I have no idea how they came to the decision that he was worth perfect marks from both, but can only assume that they both wanted him as their winner and therefore marked him highly to give him the best possible chance. The judges did not appear to confer until the end of the class.
He has never been judged by either of these judges before and there is no gain for them in putting Dinger to win.
I would ask that you please not spoil for us what has been a wonderful few days and also a difficult time with my sister (his other part owner) having been in hospital for most of HOYS and having missed his success. Sadly it fell to me to ride him in the Supreme, so although he did his best, he did not get that much assistance!
The coloured classes are among the most difficult to judge simply because there are so many different types in the ring at any one time. Perhaps it is time that CHAPS split the class further - although if this is done, I suspect that there may only be 12 horses in each class rather than the current 18 to accommodate the extra class. So a lot of non hairy horses and ponies will not get through to HOYS.
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Post by sundance on Oct 15, 2009 20:01:59 GMT
I am very pleased to see this thread, as the owner of a very hairy traditional, a true gypsy cob with many generations of true traditional breeding. I am told by gypsys that she is a very good example of the breed.
I do think she is often over looked by judges who do not understand the gypsy cob type which is to have big bone and thick coarse feather.
The judges often seem clueless to this type and try to judge traditionals as fells and dales. The worst offenders are judges who are predominantly M&M judges. Fells and dales have straight silky feather and flat bone, this is NOT the case with true gypsy cobs who have an abundance of mane and tail and coarse thick often curly feather.
Beckys stallion is a good example of a gypsy traditional, similar in type to my mare.
After 5 years I have had enough and am going back to plaiteds, at least if you have a good one it is easier to show them with some consistency!
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Post by tamba on Oct 15, 2009 20:15:45 GMT
Fmm - please do not think that I am trying to take anything away from you or any of your connections. Like I said in my previous post, I like your horse very much and I think has deserved all of his success. I alos think he deserved his win at HOYS.
I am merely raising the question, how can a judge think a horse is perfect?.
This would apply to any horse in any class.
Congratulaitons on your win!
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alex
Full Member
Posts: 468
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Post by alex on Oct 15, 2009 21:01:28 GMT
Well Dinger is a fantastic cob, Under normal circumstances I would find it strange for a horse to be awarded top marks but in this case we can make an exception.
They were obviously comparing the horses on the day. Imagine if you are a judging and you ride a horse and you think WOW that was a good ride, I'll give it 57. Then you get on Dinger he gives you an even better ride so you have to reflect that in your marks.
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Post by sue83599 on Oct 15, 2009 21:06:42 GMT
I have to agree with you Phnomstud – Chantilly Lace is a beautiful pony and probably the most consistent in the country, it’s amazing to me that she hasn’t yet won HOYS. Hopefully she’ll get her chance one day. I would also love to see the class split by type and see tall and smalls together.
Also love Pied Piper and Humdinger – well done fmm.
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Post by Pony-Nutt on Oct 15, 2009 21:23:07 GMT
How on earth can a horse get 60 out of 60 for ride and 40 out of 40 for conformation? Maybe by the time the conformation judge got to judging this class alongside the bent ride judge he got the measure of her and realised that if he wanted the best one in his opinion to do any good he would have to give it 40/40?
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Post by drenrowstud on Oct 15, 2009 21:31:14 GMT
i also think they would be better to do a diffrent split
my sugestion would be native any height , traditional any height , hogged any height and plaited any height and if numbers warrent split then down by height perhaps a lead rein and fr section now little coloured ponies are becoming more popular
at least that way you are judging like against like what does everyone else think
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Post by extraforelock on Oct 15, 2009 22:46:26 GMT
I have read this thread with interest, and I was not going to comment, for 2 reasons, I dont have a coloured, and I dont really no anything about the way they are judged, but I breed welsh B ponies. Conformation and type are just that, a pony has good comformation or it has not, it is true to type or not, there are no in betweens. As for way of going, well we all have over mind set on this one, some like, some dont. Ok that said, I have looked at the marks, and I must say I am gob smaked!!!! I was not at HOYs to see these classes but maybe that gives me a better outsiders view... no one is perfect, but we have a perfect score, such a wide range of marks that would make anyone with half a brain wonder if the whole thing was decided before hand !, and to top it all a lot of people who feel the same. Maybe its time that CHAPs got its house in order, it appears to have some problems with it is rule book regarding judging. I comes across as not being 'very clean' I will just add that I know Chantilly Lace, she is a lovely mare, infact she and my stallion hacked together many times, her way of going is a dream to behold, her temp is lovely, her comformation is as close to perfect as you will see in a horse, coloured or not, I know because I have stood next to her, mucked her out and groomed her, and my last word on this matter is ........ 'In my opinion, for what its worth, is that she was robbed' Thankyou for these lovely words about Lacy - she has been a dream mare for myself, Natalie, and now Sharon & Sarah. Perhaps the title will be hers one day.
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Post by frobster on Oct 15, 2009 22:59:45 GMT
I think it was only right that the Humdinger was awarded 60/60 for ride.
After all, the top 3 were on 58,59 and 60!
I don't think it was a case of a perfect ride, possibly the marking starting a little high? After all, how was the judge supposed to know an even better ride was on it's way after giving 58 to what she probably thought was going to be the best of the lot!
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Post by drenrowstud on Oct 16, 2009 8:29:34 GMT
pick a small ride judge and ride them all or ride none i think at the moment its very unfair that they ride only 2 sections out of the 4 . it shoud in my opinion be all or nothing
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Post by jinja on Oct 16, 2009 8:32:06 GMT
that could never happen how on earth can a ride judge ride small ponies. Chaps are in a very hard position the classes are huge and no easy solution.
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Post by kidside on Oct 16, 2009 8:47:25 GMT
At the Cherif they get a tiny jockey for the ponies, they ride tiny ones eg 12.2's and it works well everyone does their own show and the judge also rides, most the of chaps ponies are a lot bigger than little PBA's, its worth a thought!
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r.e.d
Junior Member
Posts: 180
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Post by r.e.d on Oct 16, 2009 9:12:44 GMT
I think the current height and type splits work well enough, at the end of the day if the horse is good enough it will qualify (that is if the judges are fair!)
Unless they did it similar to Olympia qualifiers for M&M's - hairy ponies having 2 classes, native and tradtional, then top 2 in each go for a championship where the winner qualifies. Same with horses, apart from having trads and cobs. Dont know what you could do with plaiteds really.
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Post by jinja on Oct 16, 2009 9:25:20 GMT
I have to agree CHAPS have it as right as it can be the classes may be huge but there is a good mixture of all types at the final.
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Post by minnies on Oct 16, 2009 10:41:09 GMT
i have to agree at the end of the day all types were presented at the final , they ALL gave a fantastic account of themselves and i was very proud to watch the standard of turnout , the well schooled horses of all types giving some exellant performances both ridden and show , we can be wiser with hindsight , chaps would love to be able to continur splitting classes as they do at championships but im afraid hoys would become a chaps show !! if we had our way unfortunaltely we dont so the spilt we have is the best we can do at the moment and then ( the only society ) allowed to present awards in the ring sashes rossettes best offs awards give us a break !!! some of us really do care whats accuring out there , we are ALL in the judges hands ! most of us are quite aware with out the gypsey type cobs there would be no coloured society and they are def more than entitled to be there and judges fairly , the same as all the other competitors
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