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Post by Put It Right on Oct 10, 2011 8:47:17 GMT
This deserves its own thread and I have brought some other comments over from the results thread:
Yesterday at 11:18pm, mac wrote: I am astounded that the results will stand for the 143cm WHP. The winner knew when they were pulled forward that they shouldn't have won it. They told the steward they had a pole and someone else also went up and told the steward straight away. I can't understand why they didn't check it and re-present to the class there and then.
It is horrible for the boy given 1st who knows he shouldn't have won and for the child who should have had the glory.
We also thought there was one clear who didn't end up in the top 11 but maybe we missed a pole too? Has anyone got the marks?
I have the marks if anyone is interested.
Mac, I agree. I'm amazed that there has been so little said on here about this. The person who was called as the winner told the judge immediately that there must be a mistake as he had had a pole. His mother ran straight down and was so embarrassed and explained that there must be a mistake but the prize giving went ahead anyway. I gather that the true winner (Lucinda Parkes) was told that if they wanted the decision considered, they would have to put down the money for an official objection, which they did, knowing they only had a couple of hours before their Championship in the International Arena. Despite being able to produce video and photographic evidence that the poor "winner" had indeed had a pole, even though he had been given a clear round, they were told that Hoys would not consider such evidence and the result would stand, with no refund of the objection money! CAN WE REALLY BE IN ENGLAND?
I find this totally unbelievable. That the pole wasn't noticed at the time was just human error - it could have been any of us, and that's in the past. However, perpetuating a wrong wilfully, because it would be bothersome to do otherwise, simply cannot be right.
There was every possible opportunity to put this right. If I was Mrs Hoys, I would have told the winner that we were truly sorry, that he would keep the rosette, the plaque, the prize money and he had had his lap of honour, but very sadly he would NOT have been able to compete the championship. I would have told Lucinda Parkes that we were truly sorry, that she too would be given a winner's rosette, the plaque, the prize money and so on, that she would take her rightful, earned place in the Championship, and that as we were so desperately sorry that she had missed her big moment in the Caldene Arena, we would make amends as far as we could by giving her a big photograph in next year's catalogue (preferably the front cover!) and a good mention. And I would have apologised the pants off Michelle and Shannon Sheridon, who had brought their lovely pony from Ireland to compete believing our top competitions to be run fairly and correctly, jumped a beautiful clear round to be beaten into 2nd place by one mark, and been denied their chance to compete the Championship, which would have show-cased their pony's immaculate manners in the International Arena beautifully. What on earth must the Irish think of our shambolic goings-on?
The error in the marking was not the issue here - it was just very bad luck for the stewards and judges who didn't see it, and the competitors who were given the wrong placings. These things happen and we all understand. The important thing is to put things right as far as we are possibly able.
I don't know what is wrong with the Hoys organisers, but one can only conclude that they are sadly lacking in both intelligence, and even more worringly, Common Sense.
I despair.
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Post by HOYS2 on Oct 10, 2011 8:52:35 GMT
I completely agree with you, I can't believe they didn't correct it when they could so easily have done.
Feel so sorry for all concerned, especially James, who 'won'. Must have been very awkward for them all.
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Post by piggels2 on Oct 10, 2011 8:56:15 GMT
all I can say is well said, BUT to be fair as you state the winner did try and say and rectify what had happened but was ignored... so my hat goes of to him and his family as their win cannot be enjoyed....
The stewards really need sorting out, for this upset caused to many.
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Post by Sportsman on Oct 10, 2011 9:09:57 GMT
I don't follow or know anything about WHP but I agree totally with the above.
I presume that the competitors in this class are teenagers??
If this is the case the winner (James?) is obviously a fine young man and his parents should be very very proud of the way he conducted himself when the results were anounced.
As for the other two competitors, I feel like crying for them
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Post by PE on Oct 10, 2011 9:23:32 GMT
Even worse, Nigel Oliver (one of the judges) and Pat Pattinson (one of the stewards, who had worked unbelievable hours all week along with her husband, Terry, and always strikes me as the most sensible of people) asked the Hoys "Stewards" to look at the video evidence which is more conclusive than that man has walked on the moon, but were refused.
How on earth can this be possible?
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Post by chloesmum on Oct 10, 2011 9:33:27 GMT
I am no expert on workers but did steward at the BSPS champs under some excellent coaching and do appreciate how hard it is for the judges/stewards to always see BUT surely if a pole came down did it not have to be replaced for the next round? So wouldn't the arena party be able to confirm it had come down? or am I being thick here?
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Post by heath on Oct 10, 2011 9:50:13 GMT
Excuse me but why are we all paying our levies to HOYS week after week if we are prepared to accept that they cant or wont play fair. There are 3 children in this scenario who are the actual losers here and not a winner between them.
Firstly James, who did state he had a pole. In fact when his number was called out he was totally shocked, shrugged his shoulders and put his palms up as if to say, no way this cant be anything but a mistake. What joy can he take from winning under these circumstances?
Secondly, the child who was second who missed her moment of glory after jumping a cracking clear round. Thirdly and perhaps I feel most sorry for this one, is the little girl from Ireland who missed her chance of riding in the big arena. None of these children can have enjoyed the experience and instead of it being the happiest day of their lives it turned into probably one of the worst for all of them.
If the judges has liked James pony so much he would probably still have ended up with being top of the poles and being 3rd which they would have been thrilled with.
As it is now, everyone has left feeling very bemused and upset about the whole affair. If HOYS havent taken the video evidence on board and held their hands up to making a mistake then they are totally out of order and has been suggested on here at the beginning of this thread that they should do all in their power to make it up to the 3 children involved in this sorry saga.
We pay our levies to try to get there but surely by them accepting them they are entering into a contract whereby we expect to be treated fairly.
I feel heartily sorry for the judges and the stewards as well in all of this and if nothing else proves that the time is ripe when the maks are displayed , ideally electronically for all to see. If that had happened yesterday the audience reaction would have alerted them to a mistake straight away.
In eventing marks are displayed onto the scoreboard throughoput the class and the time is ripe for something along similar lines now in WHPs. Hope fully HOYS will do something to make amends to all the children involved in this soory affair and good can come out of the situation for all the competitors.
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Post by ponymum on Oct 10, 2011 10:19:22 GMT
its a terrible situation , however as previously stated , the pole james had down must of been put back up , so surely that is evidence in itself?  ? Quite simple I would of thought.... |
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Post by Awitness on Oct 10, 2011 11:22:32 GMT
There were several hundred of us that could have confirmed that the first placed pony had a pole. Also, could someone have asked the photographer to quickly check if he had recorded any conclusive evidence during this lovely pony's round?
As the Caldene arena does not afford a 100% view from any one spot in the arena, perhaps there should be a ground jury also marking the jumping penalties so there would be a very quick and accessible cross reference if required?
This incident left most spectators feeling very confused and annoyed - goodness knows how the families concerned felt - my heart goes out to all involved.
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Post by Simple on Oct 10, 2011 11:37:38 GMT
37. DECISIONS The decision of the Organisers (including their employees, representatives and show officials) the Veterinary Surgeons and any Judges upon any of the matters required by the foregoing Rules to be decided or directed by any such persons or bodies including any question of height or soundness or want of merit or exclusion from final judging or granting of any permission or otherwise shall be final and binding in all respects and no objection shall be made on account thereof nor shall any appeal lie there from on any ground whatever. Read more: horsegossip.proboards.com/index.cgi?board=guests&action=display&thread=102809#ixzz1aNRSZ6nBIt is all very well having this as a rule, but actually, it means nothing. English law over-rides even Hoys law! There are many legal requirements of a limited company, which is what Grandstand Media is, and therefore it is insufficient simply to state the above on Hoys's part. Once a Hoys's official had replaced the fallen pole, Hoys had acknowledged that that pole had required replacing. It was plain at the time, to the rider, the groundstaff, the audience and the commentator (although seemingly not to the judges or stewards) that the pole had required replacing. Any failure on the part of the Hoys's official to convey that information to the appropriate parties (judges and stewards) to fulfill Hoys's legal obligations and responsibilities is the sole responsibility of Grandstand Media, and the above-stated rule does not excuse or cover them in any way. Whereas, for example, at a football match, the offside rule might be open to interpretation by the referee with no hard evidence, happily, this is not the case here. The pole fell. A Hoys's official replaced it. It is clearly the responsibility of Hoys to acknowledge their own actions, and have in place a system to convey that information accordingly for the integrity of the company and the competition. It's really very simple. |
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Post by maybee on Oct 10, 2011 11:41:39 GMT
I wasn’t there, but perhaps the pole that fell was not the highest pole of the jump itself therefore was not classed as a technical fault?
Although, from what was said previously, the judges seemed to agree with the video evidence that there was a pole down.
From the marks for the class, was the pony given a clear? And where would it have been if given the faults?
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Post by yes yes yes on Oct 10, 2011 11:51:17 GMT
Yes, it was the top pole. The photographs clearly show this.
Yes, he was given a clear round. With the fence down, he is 3rd, top of the poles. James rode a lovely round on a lovely pony, and 3rd is still fabulous, especially as we all know that if he had had a clear round he was the winner.
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Post by wendbarry1 on Oct 10, 2011 13:05:04 GMT
I do not know the worker rules but as an outsider looking in here is my point of view.
If the rounds are marked/scored for style and jumping (lack of faults) maybe they had a better style and conf and show mark which then ook them above the clears? I must admit that at this standard you probably wouldn't think so but perhaps the 2nd placed didn't do as fluent a round (maybe showjumped around???), I wasn't there, but maybe that is the answer?
If I were judging then perhaps these factors would be taken into account. If a pony jumped clear but not as fluently and the conf wasn't as nice as the pole down then I would place the faulted pony higher. Otherwise it is just a showjumping in tweeds class! Isn't this why there are seperate sections, show and conf??? Perhaps that's why I'm not a judge!
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Post by busybusy on Oct 10, 2011 13:16:57 GMT
Wendbarry1 - of course it is possible that a pole can beat a clear in some cases, however on this occasion the pony that won was credited with a clear round when many hundred of us witnessed that it had a pole down. The main critisism is that nothing was done about this, despite the issue being flagged up before the actual presentation.
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Post by 123456789 on Oct 10, 2011 13:48:08 GMT
fair enough james and family told everyone that they had a pole and were marked as a clear and shouldn't have won but how could they go into the championship smiling wearing the red rosette when they know it isn't theres. why couldn't they have handed the rosette in to the stewards and say it isn't ours, and insisted to present it to the winner, instead of keeping it. I feel so sorry for 3rd place (actually 2nd) who missed out in riding in the main arena an experience of a life time which they may never get again. also the fact that lucinda has missed out on all the excitement of winning, the lap of honour, prize money, rosette, and the title of winning which surely cant feel the same now. all this because of a silly mistake which should never happen at horse of the year show!!!
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Post by sageandonion on Oct 10, 2011 13:52:18 GMT
This is dreadful, could someone put up the marks.
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Post by Guestless on Oct 10, 2011 14:20:16 GMT
fair enough james and family told everyone that they had a pole and were marked as a clear and shouldn't have won but how could they go into the championship smiling wearing the red rosette when they know it isn't theres. why couldn't they have handed the rosette in to the stewards and say it isn't ours, and insisted to present it to the winner, instead of keeping it. I feel so sorry for 3rd place (actually 2nd) who missed out in riding in the main arena an experience of a life time which they may never get again. also the fact that lucinda has missed out on all the excitement of winning, the lap of honour, prize money, rosette, and the title of winning which surely cant feel the same now. all this because of a silly mistake which should never happen at horse of the year show!!! What a horrible situation for a young lad to be put in - he must have been disappointed enough to have had a pole down, but to put him through this is unfair, particularly when the family is obviously being totally upfront about the knock-down. Did James have to go into the main arena and contest the championship? Sounds awful if he did, or could have looked like bad sportsmanship if he chose not to go in as people may have assumed that he didn't feel he was in contention or it was pre-decided.  Poor lad and, yes, very disappointing for the girl placed 3rd. |
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Post by showboys on Oct 10, 2011 14:31:11 GMT
i think its a worse situation for the 2nd rather than james because they have missed out on a once in a life time experience which i have heard they completely deserved! maybe james parents are the ones to blame when it clearly states on the marks they were given a clear round when they know for a fact that they had a pole surely after the presentation they should have handed the rosette back as they knew they were not the winners and let the winner have there moment of glory!
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Post by sageandonion on Oct 10, 2011 14:47:42 GMT
Exactly mummy I totally agree, especially when people seem to have joined to make such remarks.
This is absolutely NOT the fault of any competitor or connection, every single person in that class is owed an apology. Completely the fault of HOYS.
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Post by Guestless on Oct 10, 2011 15:11:40 GMT
i think its a worse situation for the 2nd rather than james because they have missed out on a once in a life time experience which i have heard they completely deserved! maybe james parents are the ones to blame when it clearly states on the marks they were given a clear round when they know for a fact that they had a pole surely after the presentation they should have handed the rosette back as they knew they were not the winners and let the winner have there moment of glory! You know hindsight is a wonderful thing and I daresay there are lots of people who think "they should have dealt it by doing such and such" but in the heat of the moment, I am sure confusion will have reigned and sometimes you just go into autopilot in such circumstances. Let's keep the blame where it belongs - at the door of those who refused to listen when the error was pointed out - rather than at a young lad or his family who obviously tried to have the situation rectified. |
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Post by heath on Oct 10, 2011 15:15:39 GMT
I just feel so bad for the 3 children involved that what should have been a very happy exciting occasion has been marred by what was a mistake which could so easily have been rectified if HOYS had been on the ball and listened and accepted that he knew he shouldnt have won. Put yourselves in his shoes. he was told to come forward, he told the steward and the 2cnd place that he had a fence down but they insisited he come forward.
What was a young lad to do? It really was a no win situation all round.
I feel heartily sorry for all involved.
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Post by showboys on Oct 10, 2011 18:19:20 GMT
This was what I experienced of the day:
With regards to the 143 whp mix up, the whole situation was a shambles and the way hoys dealt with it is disgraceful. The winner had a fence down, this was missed by the judge and steward. When he was pulled forward the stewards were told that he had infact had a pole down. They carried on with the presentation and said they would look into it.
An appeal was made and Hoys stewards refused to look at video evidence (which was handed to them) and said the only evidence they needed was that of the judges. This is under HOYS rules and not BSPS rules.
Any other sport is reliant on video evidence, this should not happen at any level, never mind HOYS.
Instead of it being the happiest day of her life, the deserved winner, was in tears and the whole day was ruined. The Parkes family couldnt even enjoy the success of their other pony because of the whole ordeal. How could HOYS be so unfair?
And if I was in this position, and as most at the ringside said, surely the winning jockey could have return the rosette to Hoys, and tell them they had a fence and refuse to take the prize because it wasn't theirs!! Let alone go into the championship, possibly getting champion, after knowing they had been marked as a clear?
Love to the parkes family who I feel so awful for and Lucinda everyone knows you were the 14h winner.
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Post by beavis on Oct 10, 2011 18:31:49 GMT
Heres the marks as requested:   |
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Post by beavis on Oct 10, 2011 18:53:31 GMT
fair enough james and family told everyone that they had a pole and were marked as a clear and shouldn't have won but how could they go into the championship smiling wearing the red rosette when they know it isn't theres. why couldn't they have handed the rosette in to the stewards and say it isn't ours, and insisted to present it to the winner, instead of keeping it. I feel so sorry for 3rd place (actually 2nd) who missed out in riding in the main arena an experience of a life time which they may never get again. also the fact that lucinda has missed out on all the excitement of winning, the lap of honour, prize money, rosette, and the title of winning which surely cant feel the same now. all this because of a silly mistake which should never happen at horse of the year show!!! I totally agree |
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Post by muggley on Oct 10, 2011 18:53:58 GMT
I wasn't at HOYS and have nothing to do with workers but from reading this thread it is abundantly clear that the winner and his connections did everything they could to get the results changed to what should have been right. They blame does not lie with them.
What would any of you honestly do in that situation? Knowing you couldn't have won, informing the stewards and thus the judges as soon as you possibly could. Have it all looked into and still be declared the winner. Would you, in all honesty, throw back all of your HOYS winnings? It's not some little local show its HOYS! At the end of the day rules are rules, even if they don't make sense.
Yes all parties will evidently be disapointed to an extent but then they should also be very pleased once all the mayhem has settled down. The 2nd has the knowledge that she should have won, even acknowledged by the winner, and at the end of the day 2nd at HOYS is still much, much more than most people could ever dream of. The same with the 3rd placed pony. They also have the knowledge that they should have been up a place but they still jumped a fantastic clear round which so, so few did. Yes they have missed out their chance in the Championships and whilst it must be very upsetting and annoying for them they still got there, they still left all of the poles standing and they still performed to the very best of their ability.
It would be a completely different story if the young lad and connections involved just accepted his win and thought nothing more of it. Instead it appears that they did whatever they could to change things. What more could they do?
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Post by yumymumy on Oct 10, 2011 19:00:54 GMT
If I had been called forward as the winner, I would not have taken the 1st place rosette knowing I had had a fence down and didn't deserve it. Never mind go in the championship
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Post by beavis on Oct 10, 2011 19:01:17 GMT
The Winner could of dis-mounted and handed the rosette back I said "I knocked fence 5 down, ask the photographer, course-builder or the two thousand people watching" anyone with any decent morals would of done this, and would of gained FAR more respect from everybody had they done so, instead their name has now been blighted throughout the showing world by their lack of actions.
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Post by muggley on Oct 10, 2011 19:04:28 GMT
I'm not very "up" on the age limits for plaited workers but surely this class is full of a bunch of kids who more than likely wouldn't have had a clue what to do in the situation. Heck most adults wouldn't have a clue and would sit there glassy eyed, mouth going like a fish and not really thinking things through properly until afterwards.
Hindsight is such a wonderful thing, if only we could have it as foresight.
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Post by victoria (highhill) on Oct 10, 2011 19:07:46 GMT
The Winner could of dis-mounted and handed the rosette back I said "I knocked fence 5 down, ask the photographer, course-builder or the two thousand people watching" anyone with any decent morals would of done this, and would of gained FAR more respect from everybody had they done so, instead their name has now been blighted throughout the showing world by their lack of actions. oh come on you cant honestly expect the young lad to have done that. He may have been surprised he was called forward as 1st when he had a fence BUT at the stage he could not have known the judge had missed it. It is possible as we all know for a pony with a fence down to win if it has higher marks for style etc etc - you dont get shown the score sheet when you get given your rosette do you. It is a shame for those that missed out but i dont see how you can blame the lad involved |
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Post by lucynlizzysmum on Oct 10, 2011 19:11:45 GMT
Artistic - hear hear!
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? Quite simple I would of thought.... 
Poor lad and, yes, very disappointing for the girl placed 3rd. 
