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Post by oldbill on Oct 10, 2011 19:17:14 GMT
How did the officials miss this?
The photograph has been removed by Admin.
If you can verify to me that the photo is your property and of your child you will be able to re-post.
If you don't own the photo and the child in not yours you should not post.
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Post by muggley on Oct 10, 2011 19:21:39 GMT
How did the officials miss this? Easily if the photographer was standing in the way ;D |
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Post by oldbill on Oct 10, 2011 19:24:42 GMT
Once a Hoys's official had replaced the fallen pole, Hoys had acknowledged that that pole had required replacing. It was plain at the time, to the rider, the groundstaff, the audience and the commentator (although seemingly not to the judges or stewards) that the pole had required replacing. Any failure on the part of the Hoys's official to convey that information to the appropriate parties (judges and stewards) to fulfill Hoys's legal obligations and responsibilities is the sole responsibility of Grandstand Media, and the above-stated rule does not excuse or cover them in any way |
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Post by yumymumy on Oct 10, 2011 19:26:32 GMT
Well from the collecting ring, that was definitely the opinion. Any moral person would have returned the rosette to hoys or lucinda and said this isn't mine. I didn't win?
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Post by blovell on Oct 10, 2011 19:29:05 GMT
showboys, I too was at that ringside and your report that, "most at the ringside said" is simply not true. There was great sympathy for Lucinda and Shannon, but equally so for James. You are displaying a personal view so subjective as to be meaningless. To play Devil's Advocate, let's put ourselves in the Robinson family shoes (I have never met them, by the way). James called forward as the winner, and immediately told the judge and Lucinda that it was a mistake His mother meanwhile has run down to tell one steward, and Lucinda's father has run down to tell another steward. The judge tells James that he is the judge and the decision stands. We all totally excused Lucinda her great show of distress on the basis that it was an emotionally charged situation which no-one could get their head round. Can we not afford James the same understanding? - we all preach to our children (or we should) that the judge is to be obeyed and respected at all times and here is a judge telling James that his word is final and James is his winner. As James's parents, wouldn't you have been furious with him if he had refused his rosette, left the ring and the marks had shown that he had indeed been the winner, with a pole? In my view, James did the right thing in an impossible and heartbreaking situation. Do you really think that if James had not turned up for the Championship, Shannon would have been allowed to compete? I agree with whoever said it above that the judges might have felt he was being rude, and if your child was expected in a championship in the International Arena, and you knew full well that no one else could take the place because Hoys wouldn't allow it, and you had done nothing wrong at all, well, why not? These will all have been snap decisions which might have been made differently with more time, but I think James did the right thing here too. Did you truly, with your hand on your heart, think that Folly went better than anything else in the Championship on this occasion? If the judges had thought so, they would have made him Champion. Folly is the most wonderful pony, who has already had a day of a lifetime this season and has hoards of us admiring him. And Lucinda's other pony won, which most children would be completely over the moon with, and I'm quite sure Lucinda was. Shannon Sheridon, who is only 12, maintained her composure and dignity to the nth degree, and it could be argued that the repercussions to her were even greater. Yes, it is desperately frustrating and much worse but to start trying to lay any blame whatsoever at the Robinson's door is counter-productive in the extreme, and very misplaced. It is the last outcome he would ever have chosen either. It will compound the misery if there is now a stand-off between these families or anyone else now or in the future - and it is up to the grown-ups to get a grip and set an example. Sorry if I sound cross - I am. Well said! Completely right! |
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Post by muggley on Oct 10, 2011 19:32:27 GMT
Well from the collecting ring, that was definitely the opinion. Any moral person would have returned the rosette to hoys or lucinda and said this isn't mine. I didn't win? Until the marks were released who was to say that the pony involved hadn't won by a country mile anyway? Pole or not? Until such a time as everything is all cleared up with officials and the likes all the competitor can do is sit and twiddle their thumbs hoping for the correct outcome. It's not about morals - it's about doing the sensible thing. |
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Post by yumymumy on Oct 10, 2011 19:33:59 GMT
It was said at the ringside by the steward, the winner is marked as clear, right after the presentation.
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Post by yumymumy on Oct 10, 2011 19:34:50 GMT
Bbb, i completely agree. Hoys are in the wrong
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Post by victoria (highhill) on Oct 10, 2011 19:39:59 GMT
/quote] Until the marks were released who was to say that the pony involved hadn't won by a country mile anyway? Pole or not? Until such a time as everything is all cleared up with officials and the likes all the competitor can do is sit and twiddle their thumbs hoping for the correct outcome. It's not about morals - it's about doing the sensible thing. exactly |
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nazwa
Junior Member
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Post by nazwa on Oct 10, 2011 19:53:02 GMT
Totally agree with Artistic and also feel posting a photograph of a child who is a victim of circumstances really unfair. I was there and he didn't for one second fail to admit the fallen pole. He was visably uncomfortable during the presentation. Please have some empathy for all of these involved in this awful situation.
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Post by connie on Oct 10, 2011 20:15:44 GMT
I can't honestly believe many people would have handed back the rosette, I can hand on my heart say I would not have as I would want to make sure that I hadn't won even with the pole. The poor lad did his best and those of you who are criticising him need to take a step back and remember he is just a child.
I'm glad the photo has been removed that was unfair.
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Post by bbanks on Oct 10, 2011 20:16:22 GMT
This is a terrible situation, but in no way can the blame be laid at the feet of the riders, who, after all, are children!! We were in this class and as James walked past my daughter he kept saying that he had a pole. The officials at HOYS need to deal with this, leave the children alone. The jump in question was behind a pillar, why wasnt there stewards at the other end of the ring, as the eyes of the judge in these blind spots? At the RI , the judge can rarely see all the fences but there is a team of officials helping avoid such a situation as presented on Sunday.
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Post by qwerty123 on Oct 10, 2011 20:19:48 GMT
Thanks for everyones support, but I just want to let everyone know what actually happened to stop gossip and story changes.
Obviously James had a fence down, and when he was called forward in first place we were all shocked including James, but he still took the first rosette, which I don’t object to at all, because he may have beaten me on a pole. But my dad went over to the steward while they were still presenting to notify them. It was not the Robinson family at all.
As the horses left the arena we were told he was marked as a clear, and we told the robinson family, who said yes we did have a fence down and if you have a problem take it up with the officials and left straight away.
My dad then asked to appeal, and they said it would cost £65 and an enquiry would be made.
After 3 hours, whilst missing Alice on Bouce, lots of tears, we hear that the stewards don’t want the video evidence, which we ourselves had recorded, as we thought we were friends.
Hoys said the only evidence they needed was that of the judges and no video evidence was necessary under Hoys rules. How can anyone not want to give out a fair result , especially at this show, we spend all year qualifying for.
I was and still am absolutely distraught, I have never won hoys and the moment has been taken away from me. It completely ruined our day and Alice and I couldn’t enjoy what should have been two wins and a champion.
The Robinsons could not even look me in the face, let alone apologise. And they turn up to the championship with the red rosette on, with the possibility of winning that too.
Conversations were also over-heard in the stable block saying why should we give Lucinda the rosette?
I know if that was me, and most of my friends we would refused the rosette even after the presentation and said I simply didn’t win this nor do I deserve it.
Thanks to everyone who has supported me and sorry to Shannon, and Georgia who should have also got their 2nd & 3rd places.
How Hoys handled this situation is a shambles and even if the results are changed now, the time has passed and I just hope it never happens to anyone else. I would appreciate any letters to hoys to stop it from happening again.
Thanks Lou.
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faye1
Junior Member
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Post by faye1 on Oct 10, 2011 20:41:23 GMT
I think this is desperately sorry for all three families involved.
I don't know any of the families, but was around the rings and collecting rings and could over-hear several conversations discussing this topic. One, notably, was of the boy's mother in the international ring before the championship. She was distraught with how it was being handled and, quite understandably, said they would have been delighted with third place at HOYS - yet for them too it has now been totally marred and they did not ask for this situation to happen.
With regards to the championship - they were told they HAD to present themselves as winners. The boy and mother both seemed mortified by the situation and the position they had been put in by HOYS. The third place pony was apparently told 20mins before the championship that they were definitely not required (ie the placings were not going to be changed) and that the presented 1st and 2nd ponies were required and had to turn up. I feel for all the families involved as it has no doubt ruined three childrens' HOYS experiences - when they should all have been ecstatic to come in the top three and the true winner must be devastated beyond belief.
Ponies have won with a pole over clears before, so giving the rosette back in the ring was never going to happen. Until they saw the marks/were notified they were marked as a clear, they could not have known of the error.
I think this so desperately sad for all involved and I just hope all three riders go on to have success at this level again in the coming years. What can be gained for vilifying those involved? Nothing. I think HOYS should offer an apology to all those involved (sadly nothing could ever make up that missed moment again) and ensure that in future there are several stewards present in the ring to mark the jumping rounds.
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Post by cronkmooar on Oct 10, 2011 20:41:31 GMT
Hi Lou
I don't know you nor did I see the class, I have only read what has been posted on HG yesterday and today.
My heart absolutely goes out to you and even though I am an adult if this had happened to me I would still be crying now.
I am presuming that you are a teenager, but I would like to say what a mature post you have made and if I could wave a magic wand and make it right for you I would, but sadly I cannot.
At the moment it will feel like the end of the world, but it isn't, your day in the spotlight will come - and remember, a wheel always does a full circle - what comes around will go around.
I look forward to sitting here next year and hearing of your success. Chin up and here's wishing you all the very best for next season.
Please also pass regards on to the young girl from Ireland - its a long old trip to make home when you are disappointed and upset and my heart goes out to her too.
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Post by showing4life on Oct 10, 2011 20:51:48 GMT
Hi Lou Please also pass regards on to the young girl from Ireland - its a long old trip to make home when you are disappointed and upset and my heart goes out to her too. I know shannon from IPS and I feel so devistated for poor shannon  She is only 12 and we could see how exstatic she and her mother were when she jumped clear.. Such a shame their moment was ruined. I could see the disapointment and confusion on her face when she was called as 3rd, she is only 12 so this was quite though for her  They made the long trip over seas and to have their moment to ride in the international arena on her super pony was lost. Its just terrible.. I think no one should be blaming families or riders but HOYS were in the wrong. And Agree that the roset was never gonna be handed out with out seeing the marks. |
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Post by tiddleypompom on Oct 10, 2011 20:53:17 GMT
Im sorry Lucinda but the inaccuracies in your post lose you my support. Georgia would always have been 3rd as she finished on 2 marks less than James, once the marks had been corrected. Plenty of people were there when Mrs Robinson ran through to the collecting ring steward as the results were announced. Once you start being inaccurate and accusatory, you lose credibility.
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Post by cronkmooar on Oct 10, 2011 21:00:09 GMT
I know shannon from IPS and I feel so devistated for poor shannon She is only 12 and we could see how exstatic she and her mother were when she jumped clear.. Such a shame their moment was ruined. I could see the disapointment and confusion on her face when she was called as 3rd, she is only 12 so this was quite though for her If you could pass on regards it would be much appreciated - but how to you explain to a 12yr old that this is a complete horlix?? As an overseas competitor myself I know the expense and time spent traveling to the UK to compete and its a d**n shame the girl has not been aptly rewarded. But as I said to Lou, whilst it feels like the end of the world now, its not and her time will come. |
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Post by showboys on Oct 10, 2011 21:39:00 GMT
Tiddleypompom.. you have obviously just joined and are being spiteful to Lucinda. She loses no credibility at all, she has given her side of the story to stop people 'gossiping'. Dont you think she has had enough grief? As you have also mistakenly said Georgia would have remained 4th.
The fact is the robinson family could have easily given up the rosette and refused it. WHich could have resolved the situation.
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Post by tiddleypompom on Oct 10, 2011 21:58:19 GMT
"Thanks to everyone who has supported me and sorry to Shannon, and Georgia who should have also got their 2nd & 3rd places."
I quote from Lucinda. Shannon would have been 2nd but Georgia would not have been 3rd because James would have been 3rd. She would have been 4th.
I have not joined in the last 24 hours as my profile page will show. This is the first time I have wanted to post. Nothing the other family did or did not do could have changed anything.
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Jim
Newbie
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Post by Jim on Oct 10, 2011 23:10:24 GMT
How can anyone be sure that the pony that "won" would have been third as his jumping mark may have been less if the Jump Judge had realized he'd had a pole? Looking at the marks the two ponies who jumped clear got higher marks than any of the others who did not, which suggests the judge was penalizing rounds with faults.
The whole thing is one big mess and could have been easily solved if common sense had prevailed. This would then have prevented the unfortunate bitterness that is now over shadowing the real issue, namely HOYS' ability to conduct themselves with fairness once it was clear a mistake had been made and firm evidence was presented to back up the objection made.
I feel for the riders, owners, supporters and stewards who on the whole do a fantastic and thankless job. It was a human error which anyone of us could have made. Could you imagine if a similar thing had happened in the International Arena in a top class show jumping event televised live on Sky! Somehow I think HOYS' attitude would be a little different! HOYS are to blame for their incompetence at the way they have dealt with this matter.
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guestp
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Post by guestp on Oct 11, 2011 7:02:41 GMT
several people are saying i'd have done xyz. yes, you might in hindsight but on the day, when tension and atmosphere are thick enough to cut you probably wouldn't jump up immediately and do all the things being suggested.
i've been called into first or placed a couple of times thinking "really" but you believe the stewards have got things right. This is especially so if you have been chatting rather than watching other competitors. When yuo look at the marks it then becomes clear.
Technically you could get a pole down and still win if other marks are high and the clears have dropped marks in the other three sections.
I was not there to see what happened, but please cut the child some slack.
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Milliesmum
H G Addict
COCKERP00S RULE!!!
Posts: 23,901
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Post by Milliesmum on Oct 11, 2011 7:07:33 GMT
These are children for goodness sake. Both must be terribly upset at the goings on. Wasn't there from what's been said, all parties involved tried to point out the error at the time, the stewards missed it for what ever reason, the judge when made aware refused to budge. A lot of errors in communication at the big shows this year, lets hope the powers that be take the appropriate steps. And HOYS WILL rectify things, if you persist in a dignified manner and put forward a reasoned argument. Ask Mummy on here.  |
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Post by harrythepig on Oct 11, 2011 7:38:37 GMT
During last year we won a NPS qualifier and had a fence down even though apparently the second and third places both went clear. Judge (who is very well known) came over and explained to the top three the marks he had given for style, ride, confo etc. We had no idea of the position of the other 2 riders as too busy stripping, riding, etc our own. Our pony got a 10 for ride and a 9 for confo which pushed us up above the other 2. I do not know how anyone can predict the full set of marks for every ciompetitor until thery are displayed.
Whilst this is not an excuse for what happened regarding HOYS staff, I do understand and sympathise with the rider and family. From what I have read it is very much a no win position.
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Post by bundle on Oct 11, 2011 7:52:14 GMT
I haven't read all of this but do find it interesting that we would expect a young man to get off his horse when he knew he didn't deserve the win but not a seasoned hack champion who has more wins to his credit that most of us can dream of. Perhaps if adults lead by example I would find this less heartbreaking for everyone concerned.
Sorry cat and pidgeons comes to mind!
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Post by lordharding on Oct 11, 2011 8:21:18 GMT
How many times have we heard the term "The judges descision is final"?
The judge would have been informed of the offending pole by the stewards and officials and if he/she had wanted either of the other ponies to come up to win, then this would have been considered straight away. As the boy was allowed to compete in the championship it is clear that the judge decided that the rosette was rightfully awarded. Therefore..... "The judges descision is final"
In the meantime, if HOYS could make an official announcement to this effect, it will allow everyone concerned to move on.
Congratulations to the winner I say!
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Post by pencaedu on Oct 11, 2011 8:23:35 GMT
At the end of the day, however much b*tching you all do, the result is going to stand.
Much better to direct your attention to lobbying HOYS so that it never happens again.
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Post by heath on Oct 11, 2011 8:48:43 GMT
If ever there was a case of the jumping scores being electronically flashed up on a central scoreboard as in show jumping then the time is now. Lets hope that something good can come out of this very sad and sorry situation and HOYS recognise they are at fault and rectify this for next year.
As I said earlier there are no winners at all here just 3 very disappointed and heartbroken children and parents. In this case I feel that all the competitors feelings are justified but PLEASE remember that it isnt the winners fault. The blame can only rest at HOYS door for not accepting the facts and evidence.
The 2 greys (2nd & 3rd ) stood in the collecting ring tacked up for ages and we all thought that there would be an announcement and the class would be represented. That would have been the sensible thing to do in the circumstances and before the championship.
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Post by Guestless on Oct 11, 2011 9:01:11 GMT
During last year we won a NPS qualifier and had a fence down even though apparently the second and third places both went clear. That's a very different situation though as you won despite having a pole down. This incident relates to the pole coming down not being noted and marks being incorrect. No more b*tching towards the riders or riders' families please or this thread will be locked. It's HOYS to blame for this mess and not the entrants. |
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Post by admonished on Oct 11, 2011 9:17:14 GMT
I really cannot believe what I am reading here from some people - and they are competitors who should be concetrating their efforts on bringing HOYS to task.
A human error was made - by the judge it would appear, by failing to instruct the steward to mark the sheet as 10 penalties. And that error was in all probability because his vision of the fence from behind the pillar was impaired.
So far, a human error.
When the judge realised that there was quite probably an error, he tried to get the error rectified but was refused permission to consider video or photographic evidence - BY HOYS. That is not human error, it is a gross negiligence of duty by HOYS - and I find it unbelievable that any blame is lying anywhere than firmly at their feet.
Come on Yumymumy and Lu, - it is in your interests to take HOYS all the way on this - please please dont make it easier for them by muddying the waters and making an argument against the other competitor - you will gain nothing and on the contrary you will lose ground with them
Every time you make it personal on here their (HOYS') frown will turn into a smile. You must keep personal feelings to yourself and keep your line of reasoning with HOYS very very direct.
Ask Mummy on here - she kept her diginity and won her particular fight by keeping personal issues away from her argument with them.
You owe it to yourselves to pursue HOYS - their behaviour has been despicable
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She is only 12 and we could see how exstatic she and her mother were when she jumped clear.. Such a shame their moment was ruined. I could see the disapointment and confusion on her face when she was called as 3rd, she is only 12 so this was quite though for her 
