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Post by admonished on Oct 13, 2011 8:39:01 GMT
Disappointed - hugely, but not in the slightest bit surprised, for all concerned and that includes all current and future competitors at
I hope that those personally involved will take this matter further. HOYS can have whatever rules they like but surely they have not fulfilled their duty of care in this case - a fence falling is not an opinion it is a fact.
Please Fred and Helen, keep going - but keep it ENTIRELY impersonal....
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Post by foxylady on Oct 13, 2011 8:59:16 GMT
No surprises there then !!! Hoys have their own rules and I have never yet known a result be overturned . What a shame for the competitors it annoys me that they aren't man enough to admit mistakes happen we are all human the important thing is that you can admit to them.
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Post by Guestless on Oct 13, 2011 10:12:19 GMT
Maybe we need someone to start an online petition for this issue. It may not change the outcome and it would leave HOYS in no doubt about the strength of feeling and one of the more objective magazines (eg Showing World) would perhaps pick it up and run an article on it.
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Post by hatman on Oct 13, 2011 10:16:05 GMT
They did not need video evidence as they have the ground staff who had to put the fallen pole back up. This whole situation is crazy and unfair for all concerned. The blaim is with HOYS not the children.
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Post by ponymum on Oct 13, 2011 10:30:26 GMT
JOKE......
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Post by busybusy on Oct 13, 2011 13:22:30 GMT
I am utterly puzzled by this outcome. In working hunter pony classes jumping penalties count. Either a pole falls or it doesn't - no decision to be made. It was most unfortunate that this was missed at the time, however when all parties concerned stated that this pony had a fence down, I can't understand why the results of this class were not adjusted and rectified at some stage on the day. Had the photographer been asked "on the spot" to show any images he had of this pony over the fence in question then surely this could have been taken as evidence as there was no opportunity to "photo shop" the image to falsify the shot!
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Post by Guestless on Oct 13, 2011 14:25:25 GMT
They did not need video evidence as they have the ground staff who had to put the fallen pole back up. This whole situation is crazy and unfair for all concerned. The blaim is with HOYS not the children. Good point hatman, although I imagine by now the ground staff will no longer remember when they had to put a pole up. I can't understand why they can't just take the competitor's word for it.
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Post by bigmama on Oct 13, 2011 15:51:49 GMT
yet another fine mess to add to the catalogue of marks errors this year!
please leave the boy winner alone ~ not at all his fault ~ the blame lies totally with the judge who made the mistake by not positioning him/herself to be able to see each jump as it is jumped and then for Hoys to dismiss the evidence is dispicable and shows that it really doesnt care about the competitor, as long as they are getting their dosh out of you ~ hang your heads in shame Hoys!!
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Post by mirosa on Oct 13, 2011 16:25:52 GMT
Sorry for everyone involved in this.
HOYS have made themselves appear ridiculous & have undermined their own importance as being the most coveted title in the showing world.
People have spent years preparing for their chance of a spotlit lap of honour at HOYS. Not to mention thousands of pounds spent on diesel, entry fees, subscriptions etc - never mind the actual cost of buying, keeping & schooling the pony.
This blatant disrespect by HOYS is a slap in the face to ALL competitiors who've worked so hard to achieve a dream.
The fact that it has caused so much hurt & upset to children is unforgiveable & frankly you have to wonder if it's all worth the effort.
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Post by bigmama on Oct 13, 2011 18:07:29 GMT
very well said mirosa ...
two fingers up to the competitor from Hoys >:
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Post by rockysullivan on Oct 13, 2011 19:13:09 GMT
All Events at HOYS are held subject to the Rules of the Show as published in the schedule - so says today's press release
Well I've been looking at their schedule today (as published on their website) sect 33 (Art 168 - 171) states inter alia "The objection shall be determined by the Appeal Committee who may require and receive such evidence as they think fit" - how on EARTH do they reconcile that with a statement saying they can't accept video evidence?
Also as others have said - where is the evidence of the arena party? And the evidence of the "winning" jockey?
What does the statement "The judge and steward confirmed their belief that the original decision was correct" MEAN exactly? That they realised the pony had had a pole but still believed it should win? Or that they STILL didn't believe it had had a pole?
How does that chime with the quote from Nigel Oliver in today's H&H along the lines of "I accept a mistake may have been made?"
Why the reference to Judge singular and steward singular? Surely there is more than one steward and more than one judge in the ring? Why does it appear no evidence was taken from them?
The whole thing is a complete an utter mess - and as others have already said there ARE no winners here, only 3 children who have all had their best moments ruined
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Post by admonished on Oct 14, 2011 8:22:04 GMT
Here is a link that proves to those who - I believe mistakenly -think that the judges' decision is final, that it sometimes isnt!
Modified - link removed - picture published in H&H if you have it
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Post by quadrider on Oct 14, 2011 8:51:59 GMT
I didn't think there was any doubt that the evidence is irrefutable; photographic evidence wasn't/isn't necessary - the rider apparently said in the ring that he had had a pole - the issue is with getting HOYS to accept the facts and to accept the judge's word when he reportedly said there may have been an error.
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Post by sageandonion on Oct 14, 2011 8:54:11 GMT
admonished do you have permission to use that photograph from the parents of the child, the child and the photographer? If not please stop doing this it is an offence and far worse than the HOYS mess.
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Post by magpie on Oct 14, 2011 9:41:28 GMT
There is no need to put a pic up here, there is one in h&h clearly showing the pole falling. There are also some interesting points made in there - "taking legal advice, after judges admitted an error in class marking" - this is news to me as the HOYS statement seems they do not believe they made an error in the judging.
I feel desperately sorry for all three families, in the h&h, Shannon's mother said she "had to sell ponies at Ballinasloe fair to raise money to come here...all Shannon wanted to do was ride in the international arena."
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Post by Guestless on Oct 14, 2011 21:12:01 GMT
I've read on another forum that occasionally in SJ a judge misses a pole fall but as the judges decision is final those who benefit are lucky and those that get moved down the placings are unlucky, but that is what the rule says - I wonder if HOYS are using that rule to determine this incident.
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Post by sofabed on Oct 14, 2011 21:24:21 GMT
well i'm not sure about that , this summer my daughter was called the winner at a 3 day bsja show, she went up to the judges box and said she had the the last fence down so they recalled the prizes straight away and it was a mounted prized giving as well.
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Post by jasper1961 on Oct 17, 2011 7:51:23 GMT
Whatever next, the grapevine is now suggesting that perhaps the winning pony was to big for this class...............COME ON.....STOP BEING PERSONAL!!!
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bbb
Full Member
Posts: 300
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Post by bbb on Oct 17, 2011 13:24:34 GMT
everyone in workers knows that Fair and Square is above 143cms! Its not a new suggestion I assure you!
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Post by sageandonion on Oct 17, 2011 13:33:47 GMT
Well why haven't they objected then!
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bbb
Full Member
Posts: 300
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Post by bbb on Oct 17, 2011 13:40:23 GMT
You have seen the price for height objections i assume!? I bet it will be objected to now, as soon as a big pony wins a title like this it will be objected but until they win something big nobody can justify spending that much money
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Post by victoria (highhill) on Oct 17, 2011 13:41:35 GMT
Well why haven't they objected then! because sagey - as usual people just love to gossip rather than putting their money where their mouth is!! What will we have next - rider too old!!!!!!!!!!
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Post by sageandonion on Oct 17, 2011 14:09:40 GMT
What nonsense. You are not 'spending' money to object, just putting your money where your mouth is. You get it back and if "everyone knows it is overheight" then it surely must be. Now if you are just being gobby and nasty and saying that without justification then you deserve to lose your money.
It costs a fortune to ride at HOYS, that is throwing your money away if you believe a horse to be overheight and do not do anything about it.
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Post by victoria (highhill) on Oct 17, 2011 14:12:58 GMT
What nonsense. You are not 'spending' money to object, just putting your money where your mouth is. You get it back and if "everyone knows it is overheight" then it surely must be. Now if you are just being gobby and nasty and saying that without justification then you deserve to lose your money. It costs a fortune to ride at HOYS, that is throwing your money away if you believe a horse to be overheight and do not do anything about it. Exactly
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bbb
Full Member
Posts: 300
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Post by bbb on Oct 17, 2011 15:14:39 GMT
In my first post I was just pointing out that this is no new fact, I dont compete in the same class as this pony so actually I couldnt object, the idea that people are now bringing up the ponies height just because of the mess HOYS made of the class is ridiculous! You dont get it all back either.
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Post by admonished on Oct 18, 2011 11:39:12 GMT
A couple of years ago, the previous owners said that they had paid for a gold cert for the pony, because it is one of those that does look big - but actually isnt. They are around!
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Post by sageandonion on Oct 18, 2011 20:35:11 GMT
They didn't have gold certificates two years ago.
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Post by admonished on Oct 19, 2011 9:37:18 GMT
Sorry to be specific - I will alter to say that the previous owners have been heard to say that the pony had a gold certificate. It was at the very star of gold certificates which I believe was at the beginning of 2010 - not quite a couple of yearst
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Post by eventer on Oct 19, 2011 14:47:19 GMT
I have known Fair and Square [Corky] since he was a five year old and as far as I remember he has been owned by James grandmother [Mrs Wilson] for that length of time. Indeed he was bought for her as a hunting pony and not specifically as a worker. James was like a pea on a drum when he first appeared on him as a novice and everything that he has done competitively has been done under her ownership. He in my eyes is an uncomplicated superstar and a very special once in a lifetime pony who will be hard to replace and once more is totally home produced. He is a wonderful allrounder and will be out hound exercising if not this weekend very soon, infact this was part of his preparation for HOYS. This is a dreadful situation for everyone and James should certainly not be blamed!!! Hope they have a great hound exercising season [and you too Granny Maureen!!] Try to stay positive, eventing is always an option and I know was on the agenda anyway.
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Post by titch on Oct 19, 2011 15:40:49 GMT
The Winner could of dis-mounted and handed the rosette back I said "I knocked fence 5 down, ask the photographer, course-builder or the two thousand people watching" anyone with any decent morals would of done this, and would of gained FAR more respect from everybody had they done so, instead their name has now been blighted throughout the showing world by their lack of actions. For god sakes this is a child please respect this as he did tell them. That would take alot of courage from an adult. He did his best and he has nothing to worry about. I do not know the boy but from the sounds of it he tried his best to sort it out!!!
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