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Post by admonished on Oct 11, 2011 9:20:58 GMT
Guestless, please don't lock this thread - could you not just delete any threads that are personal and bit*hy. It is too big a subject to be locked
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Post by admonished on Oct 11, 2011 9:31:12 GMT
How many times have we heard the term "The judges descision is final"? The judge would have been informed of the offending pole by the stewards and officials and if he/she had wanted either of the other ponies to come up to win, then this would have been considered straight away. As the boy was allowed to compete in the championship it is clear that the judge decided that the rosette was rightfully awarded. Therefore..... "The judges descision is final" In the meantime, if HOYS could make an official announcement to this effect, it will allow everyone concerned to move on. Congratulations to the winner I say! It is absolutely not up to the steward to alert the judge of faults - on the contrary they are instructed not to be influenced by stewards' comments It is the judge's responsibility to instruct the stewards to mark the sheet. The judge in this instance, realising his error, asked to consider video evidence and this was not allowed. Why on earth should anyone move on until the positions are changed - because that is surely the only way forward for all concerned and every future HOYS competitor There were many voices during last week that were questioning other judges' opinions but that us just what they were, opinions. This is not an opinion - the pony placed first had a pole down, HOYS employees/officials - the coursebuilders - acknowledged the fact by replacing the pole and the penalty that should have been applied was not. This was an error NOT an opinion Just as an aside, presumably HOYS told the judge and steward to stand IN the ring, and there is probably nowhere in that ring that you could possibly stand behind those rather large pillars and still have a good view of all 9 fences. |
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Post by admonished on Oct 11, 2011 11:30:31 GMT
Lord Harding I am in no way "charged up". I was there on Sunday (and other days) and my facts are correct - though I have no immediate connection with anyone in the class.
I am merely trying to point out that where a lot of threads, judge bashing etc on here relate to opinion (be it that of the judge, the competitor and someone sitting at the ringside, soundness, height, manners etc) this particular situation arose from an error on the judge's part. The pole either fell, (10 penalties) or it didnt fall - (0 penalties). There is no opinion involved and all the photographic and video evidence shows that the fence fell.
The judge concerned asked HOYS for consideration to correct the error and was denied the opportunity of the only correct result
I am of the opinion that HOYS should be taken to task to fulfil their duty of care - that is the contract that is/was signed when anyone competing, in either a qualifier, by paying Levy to HOYS or at the finals, by signing their entry form, to which HOYS should adhere.
To move on with merely a statement from them is not a satisfactory outcome for anyone concerned - except perhaps HOYS
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Post by ponymum on Oct 11, 2011 11:41:36 GMT
Surely once again it comes down to the govening society , In this case Hoys. Rules are scetchy , but surely they and only they can clarify and put right this unfortunate situation? Once again as what Happened at Rihs , mistakes have been made.....Were those incorrect places rectified? I think not....COME ON HOYS !! Lets have some form of communication on this matter....  |
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Post by ferret on Oct 11, 2011 11:57:25 GMT
My Conni 'won' a WHP class at a BSPS show over winter , he had had a pole down and the ones who were 2 nd , 3rd , 4th hadn't , we questioned the judge in the line up and explained that we had had a pole , and they changed it there and then and we ended up 4 th lol !
I don't understand why HOYS couldn't do the same on Sunday ??!!! Simples !!
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Post by bundle on Oct 11, 2011 13:21:58 GMT
I feel so sorry for the people who "won" the class - what a ghastly thing to happen for them. They must feel awful and that is without going into how the 2nd and 3rd must feel.
As you say - come on HOYS show us what you are made of and do the right thing.
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Post by sallie on Oct 11, 2011 13:32:03 GMT
Hi do you really think HOYS will come on here? reckon they are on a beach in Barbados
at least willy Turpin wore a mask!!!!
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Post by bbanks on Oct 11, 2011 19:06:05 GMT
lordharding- I quote "They are resilient, and typically without the influence of their parents will forgive and forget (other competitors) and will only be looking forward to their next exciting time, namely Christmas?"
How patronising- if you think that Christmas is as important as HOYS to these children, you are very mistaken!
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Post by lordharding on Oct 11, 2011 19:46:13 GMT
lordharding- I quote "They are resilient, and typically without the influence of their parents will forgive and forget (other competitors) and will only be looking forward to their next exciting time, namely Christmas?" How patronising- if you think that Christmas is as important as HOYS to these children, you are very mistaken! How can this be patronising? I don't know about your children specifically, but I would like to think that children in the main are brought up to appreciate that some things in life are far more important than a red rosette! ..This thread should not be turned into a personal vendetta towards anyone and particularly by the parents of children involved. You will lose credibility by attacking peoples points of view. We are all entitled to our opinions and clearly you represent the voice of someone who is personally involved. I hope that you are able to come to terms with the outcome of this competition, it was after all, a competition and not a matter of life or death. |
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edward
Junior Member
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Post by edward on Oct 11, 2011 20:11:06 GMT
"hear hear" lord harding some peoples priorities are totally wrong when there are some children that are seriously ill in hospital, and all they wish for is to just come home let alone win a red rosette at hoys !!!
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Post by sageandonion on Oct 11, 2011 20:11:25 GMT
Oh dear, I felt so sorry for all concerned and I mean every single competitor and their family and would have been delighted to follow their progress when they took HOYS to task.
However, I very sorry to see that, yet again, this has turned into a personal and hysterical mud slinging session as usual. Please have some dignity or lose all support.
Take a leaf out of mummy's book.
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Post by bbanks on Oct 11, 2011 21:54:49 GMT
Dear, dear, I make a tongue in cheek comment and am slapped down!No, my child is not personally involved but riding at HOYS,is sometimes a once in a lifetime opportunity, therefore it is not something just to be brushed away. The children involved work very hard , all year to qualify, and are the best at the game. Of course it is not life or death, thank goodness, and of course , there are far more important things in the whole scheme of life, but, on sunday, to these children, this was the most important thing to them, so don't belittle what they have achieved, and don't underestimate what they felt.
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Post by ponymum on Oct 12, 2011 7:41:10 GMT
Has anyone involved had any response from Hoys? |
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Post by victoria (highhill) on Oct 12, 2011 8:08:05 GMT
"hear hear" lord harding some peoples priorities are totally wrong when there are some children that are seriously ill in hospital, and all they wish for is to just come home let alone win a red rosette at hoys !!! Well said Edward! Hoes may be important but it's not exactly life and death is it |
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Post by victoria (highhill) on Oct 12, 2011 8:08:53 GMT
That was meant to be hoys not hoes!!!!!!!
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Post by admonished on Oct 12, 2011 8:20:24 GMT
I was under the impression that children should be brought up to appreciate a sense of fairness - in whatever walk of life they follow. The problem here is that there was and, it seems still is no sense of fair play shown by HOYS.
The "red rosette" is only a symptom of this particular problem - not the cause of it.
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Post by bundle on Oct 12, 2011 9:27:20 GMT
Of course it should admonished! I cannot believe my daughter who believe me loves winning as much as the next person would have take the prize - Mostly because I wouldn't have let her!! but when people like John Keen are prepared to do it, what example to children are the adults making.
HOYS should put this right and soon.
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Post by lucynlizzysmum on Oct 12, 2011 9:52:15 GMT
Instead of slating and who should have done what can I remind everyone on here that 3 children are involved! They are NOT the ones at fault nor are their families. I would ask that we leave this topic alone or set out constructive criticism to HOYS and forget about what we would have done in that situation.
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Post by heath on Oct 12, 2011 10:03:35 GMT
Hang on a tick here, lets just go back to the stewards calling out the child who obviously didnt want to come forward as he knew he had a pole and told them that. Dont let us forget that it is possible to win a class on a pole so at that stage his head must have been spinning.
What else would a child do if he had told the srewards he wasnt clear? A well brought up child ( as James is) will have been taught not to answer back your elders.
Its all right saying now he should have handed the rosette back but at that stage (and remember no one knew at this point that he hadnt won the class on a pole) what was he to do?
The fault lies fairly and squarely with HOYS and I reitarate that there are no winners in this whole sorry mess only losers. I think all concerened would like thew placings to be rectified and the matter put to rest.
No rider in the future should ever have to go through these dramas when video and photographic evidence , if viewed could have cleared the whole thing up there and then and although the true winner wouldnt have had her moment of glory at least she would have been recognised as the winner and everyone would have been over it by now!
If HOYS grasped the nettle and sorted this people would have far more respect for them but please dont let this degenerate into a horrible situation between competitors who no doubt up until this moment competed happily alongside each other.
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Post by jasper1961 on Oct 12, 2011 11:17:15 GMT
I cannot believe such an iconic British institution can behave so unfairly.....it is quite simply outrageous!! I agree whole heartedly with Health's comments "No rider in the future should ever have to go through these dramas when video and photographic evidence , if viewed could have cleared the whole thing up there and then and although the true winner wouldnt have had her moment of glory at least she would have been recognised as the winner and everyone would have been over it by now! If HOYS grasped the nettle and sorted this people would have far more respect for them but please dont let this degenerate into a horrible situation between competitors who no doubt up until this moment competed happily alongside each other". Come on HOYs show your true worth be honourable and DO THE RIGHT THING for these kids!!!!  These children work their socks off all year to compete at HOYs! Read more: horsegossip.proboards.com/index.cgi?board=hoys&action=display&thread=102840&page=3#ixzz1aZ5twJ2n |
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hopalong
Junior Member
Keep calm and Kick on!
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Post by hopalong on Oct 12, 2011 11:33:01 GMT
Yes what has happened is a shambles! But there is no one to blame apart from HOYs themselves! They had plenty of time before the championship once the class had finished (even after all sections of the WHP had finished) to correct the mistake that had been made. Instead they didn't look into evidence (photographs and video) which proved that the 'winner' had a pole, which he never denied having!
In my opinion James had done everything he could to put it right and I feel very sorry for him as he is getting the blame for something that isn't his fault! He didn't want to take the rossette as he knew he wasn't the rightful winner and he did not want to go forward for the championship but was told by a steward that if he did not go forward for it then he would be eliminated from the whole competition, which would have been tragic as he still should have been placed!! Because the whole situation has turned out so badly I heard his mother say while he was in the championship with tears running down her face that they were considering never doing workers again! Which would be such a shame because it is a lovely pony and they are good at it, proved by the fact that he qualified in the first place!
Of course I feel sorry for Lucinda and Shannon as they could not enjoy their HOYs experience and I hope HOYs correct their mistake!!
However the worst thing that has come out of this situation is that 3 families that were all friends before HOYs are not any more because of the result! Which in my opinion is completely unnecessary as it is none of their faults! Surely friends should have stuck together in a situation like this not turned on each other?
Hundreds of people trail up and down the country all year to qualify for this prestigious show and when things like this happen it does make you think 'is it worth it?'
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Post by heath on Oct 12, 2011 20:16:10 GMT
I have just heard that HOYS have issued a statement on their website saying that the result stands as it is.
Personally I feel it is absoloutely awful for all concerned and hasnt enhanced the reputation of showing one little bit but must stress that HOYS dont run under BSPS rules but their own and therefore can get away with this despite the fact that 2000 people could backup the mistake!!!
Its awful for all concerned but I hope that all parties can accept it because thats obviously that and move on. This was no ones fault other than human error which could have easily been rectified.
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hopalong
Junior Member
Keep calm and Kick on!
Posts: 92
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Post by hopalong on Oct 12, 2011 20:27:26 GMT
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Post by sageandonion on Oct 12, 2011 20:30:26 GMT
Take it up in writing and seek legal opinion on this.
Could you please stop discussing the children, any of them, particularly referring to them by name.
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Post by ferret on Oct 12, 2011 20:30:41 GMT
Horse of the Year Show would like to reassure exhibitors in the Working Hunter Pony sections at this year’s show that correct procedures were followed after the submission of an appeal on the result of the 143cm Working Hunter Pony of the Year.
The independent appeals committee reviewed the situation and found the judge’s initial decision to have followed correct protocol and therefore stand as the final result.
At present there is no allowance for video or photographic evidence to be used in the appeals process. This is now being reviewed for the future so where discrepancies in results are found, this form of evidence may be used to verify a result.
The decision taken by both the judge during the class and the appeals committee after the class are independent and are final.
These are the official findings of the report:
Horse of the Year Show Appeals Committee
All Events at HOYS are held subject to the Rules of the Show as published in the schedule.
A meeting of the HOYS appeals committee consisting of Mr Alan Jones, President, Mr Brian Williams and Mr Edward Slinger, heard an appeal in relation to the result of class 49b the 143cm Working Hunter Pony.
An objection had been raised on the basis that the winning pony Fair and Square II, had been incorrectly awarded a clear round in the jumping phase of the competition.
The committee heard evidence from a representative of the objector and from the jump judge and Steward concerned.
The judge and steward confirmed their belief that the original decision was correct.
There is currently no provision in the rules of the show for consideration of video evidence and the committee upheld the original decision.
The appeals committee recommends that consideration should be given to the future admission of official video evidence.
The appeal was properly made within the rules and the deposit will be returned.
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Post by sageandonion on Oct 12, 2011 20:39:45 GMT
So that means they believe there was a clear round. I would take this further, unless there is a rule that says video evidence may NOT be considered, there is no reason why it should not, particularly if more than one video footage is presented. Presumably they are not prepared to accept the statement from the winner that they did not have a clear round.
What an absolute nonsense showing is.
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Post by Julie(luke3) on Oct 12, 2011 20:53:10 GMT
Could you please stop discussing the children, any of them, particularly referring to them by name. Totally agree with this post x They are CHILDREN!!!!! |
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Post by Guestless on Oct 12, 2011 21:43:17 GMT
The statement from HOYS is crazy and I have posted a comment to say so (although I doubt it will actually appear since comments are subject to moderation). If photographic/video evidence is not permitted, then why can't they take evidence from the competitor? This situation teaches children absolutely nothing about being open and honest.  Obviously HOYS is not concerned about being fair! |
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Post by caroline on Oct 13, 2011 8:07:35 GMT
have to agree the 'hoys' statement is crazy. we all know that human errors are made and i was sat with a group of very experienced whp judges and stewards who had marked the class and where convinced there marking of only 2 clears was right. We all acknowledged a mistake had been made but did feel confidant that it would be rectified through the correct procedure. for the result to stand does seem very unfair and unjust and really nobody ends up winning as ALL 3 competitors and families must feel hard done by.
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Post by sallie on Oct 13, 2011 8:14:03 GMT
so does this mean that the Steward and Judge say it jumped clear?
also will HOYS issue a statement to apologize for the rude L/R and F/R Judge? and please tell us which panel if any she is on?
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Obviously HOYS is not concerned about being fair!