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Post by nia2311 on Jun 25, 2012 17:52:19 GMT
How about taking advantage of the free contraception on offer (that those of us in work are paying for by the way), and not getting pregnant in the first place unless you are in a position both fianancially and emotionally to bring up a child properly?? OK so I appreciate circumstances can change, but by and large people don't think long term before having unprotected sex! Sometimes, 16yos DO use the free condoms on offer. My son is a product of a defective one - it wasn't an obvious defect, or else I'd have gone for the morning after pill ;D. I couldn't abide the idea of abortion personally, so felt continuing with the pregnancy was my only option. My family supported me with this. I don't fit any of the teenage parent stereotypes. I was 7 months pregnant when I sat my GCSEs in which I got all A*s. I then took 1/2 a term off A-Level study, returning to complete 5 A Levels while my son was a baby. I then took a Gap Year to gain work experience and save some money, heading to Uni when my son was 3. I also left home at this point and have lived with my now-husband ever since. I have a degree in Microbiology, which I finished when my son was 6, and I have a Masters level teaching qualification. I have always worked, including during my degree. But no-one puts Daily Mail headlines screaming "teenage parents gains work experience placement with large national brewery," or "teenage parents gets 5 A-Levels and an offer to go to Cambridge."  There's plenty more like me, just we don't get the time of day, we get lumped in with all the scroungers and wastrels and are accused of drinking away our child benefit..... You try getting on a public service bus, wearing the school uniform of a well respected local Church secondary school, whilst evidently 7-months pregnant. People say some cruel things to people they do not know!!  |
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Post by Milliesmum on Jun 25, 2012 18:12:24 GMT
Nia, there are always genuine cases, I'm not denying that. But there's more than one kind of contraception, and if girls took up the option of implants or injections, there'd be less teenage pregnancies. I know it's not just the girl's responsibility, and there's STD's to think about too, I just can't understand why in a lot of cases where there's the option to be safe that people wouldn't take it up. I don't know what the answer is, and I do think that we should support those in genuine need, but somewhere along the line there has to be some middle ground, surely?
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Post by sometime on Jun 25, 2012 18:21:03 GMT
sure we need to support those in real need maybe it is the need to identify those cheating and deal with them accordingly not sack or make redundant those that are doing their best to single them out
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Post by nia2311 on Jun 25, 2012 18:36:04 GMT
Nia, there are always genuine cases, I'm not denying that. But there's more than one kind of contraception, and if girls took up the option of implants or injections, there'd be less teenage pregnancies. I know it's not just the girl's responsibility, and there's STD's to think about too, I just can't understand why in a lot of cases where there's the option to be safe that people wouldn't take it up. I don't know what the answer is, and I do think that we should support those in genuine need, but somewhere along the line there has to be some middle ground, surely? I wasn't allowed to have contraceptive pills due to a hormone problem I had (and still have). I am now able to use the Pill because I am on the right medication, but when I was 16 they wouldn't give me any hormonal methods. I did ask  Oh, and have you tried the contraceptive injection?! I have. I wouldn't inflict it on my worst enemy. The side effects are horrific. I haven't heard anyone who would recommend it. It really is awful |
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Post by nia2311 on Jun 25, 2012 18:43:44 GMT
By the way, I totally agree with you on the need to stop benefits becoming a career option, but I do get cross when all teenage parents are stereotyped as a) irresponsible, b) poor educated, c) feckless, d) lazy and e) work shy. Its all we ever hear in the media and its wearing. I have had so many rude comments aimed at me over the years, because I was evidently a young parent. Not once did I shout back "well I bet I am more highly qualified than you," or "sorry, do YOU own your own home. I didn't think so." No, I just kept my mouth shut and hoped the ground would swallow me up. I learnt to drive asap so I no longer had to endure public transport journeys with ignorant people. Here is the product of my fecklessness. I think I've done alright  This is me, aged 16 with my son. He was about a month old I think here  |
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Post by Milliesmum on Jun 25, 2012 19:11:30 GMT
Nia we are at cross purposes, I have no problem whatsoever with the genuine people who need support via the benefits system. That's what the benefits system is there for, to help out in cases of genuine need. Incidentally my oh was ill recently and despite having paid into the system for thirty years, was entitled to bugger all. What makes me cross is those people who have never worked and have no intention of doing so, yet continue to pop out babies for honest hard working folk to pay for. Intentionally, by choice, and don't see anything wrong with it.
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Post by nia2311 on Jun 25, 2012 19:15:50 GMT
Nia we are at cross purposes, I have no problem whatsoever with the genuine people who need support via the benefits system. That's what the benefits system is there for, to help out in cases of genuine need. Incidentally my oh was ill recently and despite having paid into the system for thirty years, was entitled to bugger all. What makes me cross is those people who have never worked and have no intention of doing so, yet continue to pop out babies for honest hard working folk to pay for. Intentionally, by choice, and don't see anything wrong with it. I totally agree. But it doesn't help people's arguments when they stereotype a particular group of people. It's my personal bug bear having been in the situation. I was judged, assuming (wrongly) to be claiming benefits and had also sorts of insults thrown at me in public, in the days of picture no. 2 above. Sweeping generalisations don't help those people now in my shoes. I cannot abide laziness and benefit cheating either. I agree the system is there as a "fall back" for those with genuine needs, but so often, the genuine are told to get stuffed, whilst those who cheat the system seem to come away with everything they claim for, and I simply do not understand the system. I've never bothered to look into it much, but it seems weighed again the genuine. |
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Post by amumwithapony on Jun 25, 2012 19:55:43 GMT
It is weighed against the genuine Nia, you are right.
Having been in the same situation as MM myself recently with a hubby seriously ill, no income because he was self employed and being told that we had to attend a medical before we could be considered for benefits, I know how frustrating it is.
I was also a single mum, albeit a bit later than you, and went from being a financial adviser at a leading bank to cleaning the loos in a working mans club just so's I wouldn't have to fall onto income support. I get incredibly cross at people who work the system to their advantage. Yes I had help with tax credits but my salary for 5 years before I left banking exceeded 30K so I think a little help when I needed it most is justified.
But those we are discussing are not the people who go out and do whatever it takes to avoid benefits, they are the people who delibrately do whatever it takes to recieve benefits.
And Sometime, whilst I sympathise that your son could only find work out of his area and his bus fare would have been expensive, my OH (who very nearly died at christmas) travelled exactly 712 miles last week to get to work and back. And did so 5 weeks after being on HDU for 5 days. He's a builder. And has a colonscopy which is a bag attached to his tummy which he poo goes into due to the fact he had a perforated bowel for 2 weeks.
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Post by sometime on Jun 25, 2012 20:05:07 GMT
Not my boy mine have never claimed a penny and have worked everyday since leaving full time education one now works over 60 hours a week to provide for his family. We have a very strong work ethic in our family and none of us have ever had to claim benefit I suppose we are just as likely to be paying for the unfortunate few that are incapable of working and the lazy few that fleece the system. not that I would ever consider them in the same light I am I am not ashamed to say a full supporter of the welfare state I do feel it would be better to catch the tax dodgers and pay for proper investigation into both types of fraud both benefit fraud and tax evasion
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Post by sageandonion on Jun 25, 2012 20:11:40 GMT
I have to agree with Cameron about this housing benefit thing. So is this right, teenagers go on job seekers allowance, tell the council they are homeless and they get a private rental flat paid for? Someone please tell me I have got this wrong ......
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Post by sometime on Jun 25, 2012 20:18:47 GMT
Dont think it that simple They have to prove they are homeless and even then they are not given a flat etc unless they have literally nowhere to go. no family no friends and they have to prove that too Or the options they have are too dangerous for them to take up eg abusive parents etc
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Post by amumwithapony on Jun 25, 2012 20:19:24 GMT
Nope Sagey, its right! And to add insult to injury those leaving prison are classed as top priority for a fully furnished flat with rent paid on it. And now the system has decided that it would be a good idea to pay the HB to the tenant rather than the landlord. So the tenant gets the rent paid to them to pass on. The tenant the spends the rent and the landord has to come to someone like me to try and recover the rent. Until the tenant is 2 months in arrears (at which point the landlord can begin eviction proceedings which take another 2 months at least) the HB won't pay the rent directly to the landlord. I heard cameron this eveing on the news. Apparantly if you have 4 children you can claim up to 25K in HB alone Whats the national average wage? |
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Post by amumwithapony on Jun 25, 2012 20:20:59 GMT
I do apologise Sometime, it wasn't your son I was referring to  |
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Post by sometime on Jun 25, 2012 20:21:11 GMT
35k but I dont know anyone who earns that much
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Post by nia2311 on Jun 25, 2012 20:21:14 GMT
I have to agree with Cameron about this housing benefit thing. So is this right, teenagers go on job seekers allowance, tell the council they are homeless and they get a private rental flat paid for? Someone please tell me I have got this wrong ...... I don't think its that easy. I don't think single young people can get the full housing benefit unless they have children. But don't quote me on that as I have only read what is in the papers and on BBC news today. |
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Post by nia2311 on Jun 25, 2012 20:22:04 GMT
35k but I dont know anyone who earns that much The average last time I read it was between £25-27K depending on where you lived. £35K sounds a little high? |
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Post by cayo on Jun 25, 2012 21:45:27 GMT
How about taking advantage of the free contraception on offer (that those of us in work are paying for by the way), and not getting pregnant in the first place unless you are in a position both fianancially and emotionally to bring up a child properly?? OK so I appreciate circumstances can change, but by and large people don't think long term before having unprotected sex! i think thats a seperate issue altogether or would you like to see us going down rd like china maybe forceing pregnant females who are unemployed to abort unborns at 7 and 8 months would that make you any happier about paying for the free contaception to be honest your comment sickend me ,would you also like to see anyone not in work not getting health care or food for the kids ,my husbands pays a lot of tax and is happy to do so to keep our countries nhs and welfare state he would just like to see cheats caught and punished and that incs the rich who cheat the systems too as i said before anyone who thinks its easy on benefits give your job up and let someone else have it let them pay for the contrceptives for a while cameron has done a good job on a lot of posters on here to convince them that all our troubles are down to the unempolyed and nothing to do with rich fat cats and bankers shafting the working class at every step . |
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Post by Milliesmum on Jun 25, 2012 21:55:26 GMT
I've already said, I haven't a problem with cases of genuine need. Although how that's decided confuses me somewhat. I didn't say I wasn't happy about paying for the free contraception, I just wish more people would take it up, and not continue to have babies that they don't have the wherewithal to support.
What I would actually like to see is for benefits to be contributions based, so that those who have worked and contributed could claim a little bit back in times of need, and those that have never done an honest days work would have to get of their backsides and find work. And I do believe there is work out there for those that want it enough.
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Post by cayo on Jun 25, 2012 21:59:50 GMT
Nope Sagey, its right! And to add insult to injury those leaving prison are classed as top priority for a fully furnished flat with rent paid on it. And now the system has decided that it would be a good idea to pay the HB to the tenant rather than the landlord. So the tenant gets the rent paid to them to pass on. The tenant the spends the rent and the landord has to come to someone like me to try and recover the rent. Until the tenant is 2 months in arrears (at which point the landlord can begin eviction proceedings which take another 2 months at least) the HB won't pay the rent directly to the landlord. I heard cameron this eveing on the news. Apparantly if you have 4 children you can claim up to 25K in HB alone Whats the national average wage? sorry to say you have no idea you hear cameron bandy about figures that all apertain to london where cost is much higher than other areas and lets face it it isnt the claiment who get sth ehousing benefit its the landlord they are th eones really milking the system they shouldnt cap housing benefit but cap the amount landlords can charge if they want to take housing benefit tenants in my area hb is set at £350 per month for two bed house wouyldnt matter how many bloody kids you had in it thats no where near the figure they quote £25k lol just how many families with 20 kids are living in kensington and claiming hb to tune of £25k a year mmm not many please wake up and dont believe a word they say lol |
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Post by sometime on Jun 25, 2012 22:01:36 GMT
I agree Cayo but I also think the people likely to be horse owners and country people tend to be conservatives so they will support the cameron government cant abide the man myself but then I have always been fortunate to be brought up in a very wealthy family that was entirely altruistic and socialist so always championed those worse off than myself. Guess it takes all sorts to make a world Townies brought up with nothing are more likely to have a different view of things so how is that for a couple of generalisations
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Post by sometime on Jun 25, 2012 22:05:36 GMT
35 was the basis on which they based the need to earn to have a net income of 25 on which they based the benefits at the last budget
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Post by cayo on Jun 25, 2012 22:12:35 GMT
I've already said, I haven't a problem with cases of genuine need. Although how that's decided confuses me somewhat. I didn't say I wasn't happy about paying for the free contraception, I just wish more people would take it up, and not continue to have babies that they don't have the wherewithal to support. What I would actually like to see is for benefits to be contributions based, so that those who have worked and contributed could claim a little bit back in times of need, and those that have never done an honest days work would have to get of their backsides and find work. And I do believe there is work out there for those that want it enough. so now your saying that all these kids on the dole today who have no hope of a job anytime soon dont deserve a bit of welfare to live on as ive said before we will never have 100% employment there will never be enough jobs to go round ,yoiu cant just go round making blanket statments like contribution based what about the disabled who have never worked how an dwhen will they contribute just what do you think welfare state means it isnt just for the workers it wa set up to help the unemployed and poor for god sake whats wrong with all those who work helping those who dont do you realise how much inflation would soar if we had almost everyone in work governments like to keep a certain ammount unemployed to keep inflation down you seem to think its all so cut and dry . |
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Post by Milliesmum on Jun 25, 2012 22:18:24 GMT
You're deliberately twisting my words, look what I said, I have no problem with cases of genuine need.
Surely you can't think it's right that people sit on their bums all their life and get everything handed to them on a plate whilst others work and pay for it all? No one has mentioned the disabled except you!
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Post by cayo on Jun 25, 2012 22:27:25 GMT
It is weighed against the genuine Nia, you are right. Having been in the same situation as MM myself recently with a hubby seriously ill, no income because he was self employed and being told that we had to attend a medical before we could be considered for benefits, I know how frustrating it is. I was also a single mum, albeit a bit later than you, and went from being a financial adviser at a leading bank to cleaning the loos in a working mans club just so's I wouldn't have to fall onto income support. I get incredibly cross at people who work the system to their advantage. Yes I had help with tax credits but my salary for 5 years before I left banking exceeded 30K so I think a little help when I needed it most is justified. But those we are discussing are not the people who go out and do whatever it takes to avoid benefits, they are the people who delibrately do whatever it takes to recieve benefits. And Sometime, whilst I sympathise that your son could only find work out of his area and his bus fare would have been expensive, my OH (who very nearly died at christmas) travelled exactly 712 miles last week to get to work and back. And did so 5 weeks after being on HDU for 5 days. He's a builder. And has a colonscopy which is a bag attached to his tummy which he poo goes into due to the fact he had a perforated bowel for 2 weeks. I am sorry your husband was ill and i really dont see how he wasnt entitlled to a penny as everyone who has paid ni is entitled to sick pay ,i have liitle by the way of stamps on as i havent worked for long periods while bringing up the kids not full time enough to pay stamps anyway an dthen later still only did part time until i became to ill to get a job so i too cannot claim a penny as i am married an dmy hubby is thanks fully quite well paid .it wa smy son who couldnt find ajob clos eto home the problem wasnt the traveling but finding the money for bus fares before he had earned any my point was what would he have done about that if he didnt have parents who could support him until he got on his first wage this is a situtation many of these so called scroungers are faced with ,another for instance my daughter works in private health care has for 7yrs paid stamps tax for all that time if she had been unlucky enough to loose her job she wouldnt even get hb to keep her flat as she isnt over 25 yrs how does that sound fair . |
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Post by cayo on Jun 25, 2012 22:32:14 GMT
nia2311 you have certainley made a good go of your life and should be proud as im sure that you are but as i have said what do young people do if they are in your situation and no help from parents yours were very supportive by the sound of it but others are not so lucky do we leave them on the street you are young and see things more clearley than many older people well done
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Post by cayo on Jun 25, 2012 22:34:55 GMT
Nope Sagey, its right! And to add insult to injury those leaving prison are classed as top priority for a fully furnished flat with rent paid on it. And now the system has decided that it would be a good idea to pay the HB to the tenant rather than the landlord. So the tenant gets the rent paid to them to pass on. The tenant the spends the rent and the landord has to come to someone like me to try and recover the rent. Until the tenant is 2 months in arrears (at which point the landlord can begin eviction proceedings which take another 2 months at least) the HB won't pay the rent directly to the landlord. I heard cameron this eveing on the news. Apparantly if you have 4 children you can claim up to 25K in HB alone Whats the national average wage? who is someone like you are you a debt collector |
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Post by nia2311 on Jun 25, 2012 22:44:19 GMT
nia2311 you have certainley made a good go of your life and should be proud as im sure that you are but as i have said what do young people do if they are in your situation and no help from parents yours were very supportive by the sound of it but others are not so lucky do we leave them on the street you are young and see things more clearley than many older people well done Clearly some young people who have children WILL need some sort of social housing, but it is critically important to ensure such young people remain in education and therefore can find work. The problem is too many drop out of education and are therefore trapped with no qualifications. I was determined to carry on with education - I would have taken my son into class if that was necessary. There needs to be more focus on keeping young people in academic education - a lot of schemes aimed at pregnant teenagers are not aspirational, they cater to the lowest common denominator and do not equip young people with the necessary skills and qualifications. I had to argue AGAINST being sent to a special teenage pregnancy unit to sit my GCSEs. My school were happy to support me, but some midwife somewhere passed my details to this special unit where most girls take 2-3 GCSEs and then do some sort of hairdressing or beauty course. They couldn't offer all the GCSEs I was sitting, only the core ones of Maths, English and Science. Why can girls not sit History, Spanish, German or RS in these units? Why is everyone shoe horned into hairdressing, or childcare? Why are the aspirations for pregnant girls low? I studied this during my teacher training and found precious little literature on the subject, which is worrying. Teenage pregnancy has always, and will always happen, free condoms or not. It is now declining from a peak in the late 1990s, but the problems persist. My vision is of young mothers who continue in purposeful education and who can then work their way out of the social housing and benefits. Nursery care is also needed to support this vision - it is too expensive at present. |
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Post by cayo on Jun 25, 2012 23:06:30 GMT
I agree Cayo but I also think the people likely to be horse owners and country people tend to be conservatives so they will support the cameron government cant abide the man myself but then I have always been fortunate to be brought up in a very wealthy family that was entirely altruistic and socialist so always championed those worse off than myself. Guess it takes all sorts to make a world Townies brought up with nothing are more likely to have a different view of things so how is that for a couple of generalisations I think your quite correct in thinking that and it just goes to show the social divide is growing even bigger under cameron ,actually maybe three tia divide now with working class in the middle well off rich to the right and the poor feckless unemployed the only lefties left and the middle ground workers hateing both left and right for shafting them lol. but sadley i think that your right and most less fortunate people proberley think the well off are all gits which is a shame because they clearly are not nore are the unemployed all scrotes we need to stop generalising in this way ,but cameron now has the poor low paid ect even the well paid blaming the very poor and public sector workers for the state of the country when it is infact the bankers and the world econamy to blame not the unemployed or the handful of scroungers that beat the system ,when he starts to build his recovery programe around getting jobs for the unemployed then we will all be better off austerity leads to more and more unemployment and that leads to deeper resesstion thats my view  |
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Post by sink estates on Jun 26, 2012 0:36:54 GMT
cayo you are missing the pont, of course not everyone living on a council estate is a scrounger. There are people who have no choice but to live their and their life is blighted by youths crime etc but they tend to be the ones who are honest and decent and try to better themselves.
But every time I saw clients in these areas I was depressed by the fact they all travelled everywhere by taxi, had sky TV, the latest and biggest tv, fancy mobiles and designer nike sportswear nd spent every day drinking and smoking. What got me most it the attitude of them - from the older ones passed down to the teens - Job seekers day is referred to as getting their wages or payday!!! There is a whole generation or more who have never gone to work in their life and are well supported by the state and they have their claims down to a T with the 'bonus' of generous Disability benefits for bad backs, alcoholism, depression, anxiety, asthma (ffs Ive had that since I was 7) if they can get themselves on that nice little earner. There is a world owes me a living attitude, as someone else on here said all benefits should be contribution based. I.e those who do not work should be doing something work wise voluntary to improve their community in some way, even if only for one day a week. Cayo I'd love to see you actually work with these people 'on the coal face' as it were not some fluffy bunny charity handout job either. I spent 2 years as a leaving care social worker and with the exception of 3 or 4 cases where the teens were making a good effort to try and change their life I saw many more teens and familys that were just beyond redemption, and im not one to give up easily. Drugs is one of the biggest issues now and I dont think you understand the money and sort of people involved in controlling this, its quite scarey if you think too deeply about it.
And dont think I scoff lightly about people with depression ive spend most of my professional carrier working with the local psychiatric in patient unit so I know what someone with proper clinical depression presents like. Cayo the world is not black and white, i'm afraid ive seen far too many people over the years to agree with your standpoint.
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Post by amumwithapony on Jun 26, 2012 5:25:36 GMT
I'm not a debt collector Cayo. I advise landlords and letting agents about what they can do and what their rights are when a tenant stops paying rent. The majority of landlords I deal with are decent, hardworking people trying to run a business. The majority of cases I deal with are those involving HB tenants. So no, the rent doesn't get passed to the landlord in all cases, otherwise I wouldn't have a business.
My husband COULD have claimed £63 a week I think whilst he was ill. It would have involved him having to attend an appointment at the job centre to assess his medical condition and prove he was too ill to work. By the time they had processed his forms and sent for him he would have been back at work and therefore unable to prove he wasn't fit for work, so wouldn't have got anything. We weren't entitled to anything else as I work as well. He very nearly died on the 11th December, had 5 hours of surgery to open him up from his chest to his groin, had a colonoscopy fitted and was back at work on 10th January. As a builder. As we were running out of savings.
So when people say to me 'Oh I can't work, bad back etc' I have no patience with them. My hubby proved what can be done, whilst next door but 3 to us has 2 lowlifes in it who smoke pot in the garden all day, have takeaways nearly every night, a car on the front and go on holiday 3 times a year. Neither works. And they have a little boy as well.
No one on this thread is saying that those in genuine need shouldn't have some help. If we were then your posts would be justifiable. All people are saying is that those who make a career out of claiming for all their lives should be forced to do something or loose their benefits.
There are jobs out there for people who want them enough. We have a building company and struggle to find decent, honest hardworking labourers for £8.50-£10.00 per hour, 35 hours a week with transport to and from work included.
There was a documentary on a couple of years ago looking at the effect immigrants were having on the UK job market. The claim in the press had been that immigrants were 'taking' all the jobs from those born in this country. The documentary followed 8 long term unemployed people in the jobs they had found them. I think out of the 8 only 1 person stayed in the job at the end of the programme? The other 7 were work shy idle wasters.
And more people being in work doesn't increase inflation beyond what the economy can support. The more people who work, the less the welfare bill is. The less that bill is, more money can be pumped back into the economy and more jobs created. And more people working creates jobs in its own right.
There is a lost generation of young people who need help I agree. They need to be shown that working is the way forward, not living on benefits. And if they can't get a job in their current situation then they need to train and develop their skill base so they can increase their prospects. There was an incentive a couple of years ago on the Modern Apprentice schemes where a young person is taken on by a company and developed a skill, be it mechanics, building, engineering etc. I think something like 20000 places were available with funding around the UK. They scrapped it as no one took it up.
In a few years there will be a massive shortage of skilled trades men and women. So these poor young unemployable teenagers and young adults will do well to get onto a course like this. But it doesn't interest them as they are 'no better off' working all week for £96 when they get £60 on JSA. Doesn't matter to them that they will learn a skill as they have no intention of working all their lives anyway.
The benefits system penalises those in work and rewards those not working. It needs to be changed. More support for the genuine and those who want to work, none at all for those that won't work. I refuse to believe that those on long term unemployment benefit can't find a job, doing anything at all.
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