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Post by 2 more at nps ? on Sept 20, 2017 21:17:12 GMT
Apparently 2 more at Nps summer championships just wondering if these outcomes and the punishments will be published
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Post by CarolineNelson on Sept 20, 2017 21:37:10 GMT
McNaughty - To be pedantic, this was not as you put it, "copying & pasting". Copying from physical Rule Books / schedules to the medium of HG? I'm simply not that clever. This was finding the rules in physical 'Book'/s and again, physically re-typing it. Takes a little longer. And, one hoped, showed a touch of passion regarding this vital topic.
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Post by Bigger issue on Sept 20, 2017 22:35:09 GMT
I personally think that even with more testing the problem will continue, due to the fact that a lot of the illegal substances used just aren't picked up on dope tests. It's been mooted on this post that vodka has been used to dope a pony. I don't believe vodka would show up on a standard dope test, so therefore the problem continues Showing seems to have hit an all time low this year. Is social media to blame? Is money to blame? Who knows, but I wish it could go back to the good times, when shows were friendly, horsemanship was high and competitors/ judges were straight or straighter!
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Post by Philippa on Sept 21, 2017 4:15:14 GMT
I personally think that even with more testing the problem will continue, due to the fact that a lot of the illegal substances used just aren't picked up on dope tests. It's been mooted on this post that vodka has been used to dope a pony. I don't believe vodka would show up on a standard dope test, so therefore the problem continues Showing seems to have hit an all time low this year. Is social media to blame? Is money to blame? Who knows, but I wish it could go back to the good times, when shows were friendly, horsemanship was high and competitors/ judges were straight or straighter! I I think both money & social media are to blame. I'm not sure what the answer is but I agree something needs to be done. I've been told straight from the horses mouth about a pony that needed 8 calmers & 5 hours lunging to get in the ring at hoys. I've also seen for myself ponies being lunged for hours on end. I can't compete with that, I've neither the time or inclination to do that to myself or my pony!! If you feel a pony is doped on the day you would initially speak to the show secretary but from there unless it was a larger show there would not be the facilities to test on the day.
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Post by the showing register on Sept 21, 2017 5:40:38 GMT
This has been interesting to follow and following on from the thread TSR had already decided to have a vet in attendance at our two shows next year. This will cost in the region of £1000 before any dope testing. We had decided on a vet after welfare issues in the horse box area we had eradicated unsuitable working in on the grass (i hope) but had several concerns behind the boxes.
People will always chance their arm and hope they are not the ones tested but the only way to stamp it out is a ban but here you run into problems if they maintain the pony was got at etc. Several well known people have been tested positive last season and nothing has happened so it is no deterrent but this season there has been some repercussions so we shall see.
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Post by leevale on Sept 21, 2017 6:39:19 GMT
This has been interesting to follow and following on from the thread TSR had already decided to have a vet in attendance at our two shows next year. This will cost in the region of £1000 before any dope testing. We had decided on a vet after welfare issues in the horse box area we had eradicated unsuitable working in on the grass (i hope) but had several concerns behind the boxes. People will always chance their arm and hope they are not the ones tested but the only way to stamp it out is a ban but here you run into problems if they maintain the pony was got at etc. Several well known people have been tested positive last season and nothing has happened so it is no deterrent but this season there has been some repercussions so we shall see. What is the point of testing if when "well known people" are tested positive there are no consequences?
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Post by Well said on Sept 21, 2017 7:53:37 GMT
Interesting TSR and well done on implementing a vet at show however that does all back up my point that for smaller shows the cost could just not be met, we are lucky if we break even! Here is a thought on the issue of how competitors could make a complaint if they believe a pony is drugged. Perhaps there needs to be something like a 'whistleblowers' policy where someone and I believe they should be members of the society they are complaining to can raise their concerns with as much evidence as possible but this I am sure is difficult as to all intends it is just a 'believe' unless the administration of drugs has been witnessed. I also think they should have to put a sum of money down. The society should then arrange a drug test at the next available show animal is cometing at, of course this would not be random but no advance warning. If the test is positive then dealt with under the society rules and objection money refunded to person who complained, if negative then then money should not be refunded. Reason I am saying this is as we all know there are some people out there who like to point a finger and if there was no comeback then I feel societies could be overrun with 'alleged' incidents. Just a suggestion and of course it would need all societies to agree and perhaps have an independent panel who look at these complaints so not just dealt with 'inhouse'. Not an easy thing to introduce and would need careful planning and discussion.
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Post by kateanne0 on Sept 21, 2017 9:04:28 GMT
Funny how a very high profile horse failed a dope test at Windsor and it's been swept under the carpet! The societies just aren't interested they will look after their own Can you substantiate your claim? How do you now it was tested positiive if no results were posted?
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Post by interesting on Sept 21, 2017 14:32:14 GMT
interesting reading, adding my thoughts for what they are worth - i've been in showing 45 years and nothing has changed, ponies, particularly the plaited have always been doped! i would think probably at least one pony in each HOYS qual...its common practice and i'm not talking about the relatively new over the counter calmers. the thing is i and many other people i know are aware this happens, and still choose to go showing.
showing is a relatively closed shop and the producers stick together on this one - you wouldn't find them objecting to each other. some judges will be aware, others see things through rose coloured glasses but at the end of the day the evidence tells us it is tolerated. people don't get punished for it, the opposite - they win the classes!
just my humble opinion. it looks as though its mostly accepted and people turn a blind eye or are blissfully unaware.
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Objection procedure
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Post by Objection procedure on Sept 21, 2017 16:46:29 GMT
interesting reading, adding my thoughts for what they are worth - i've been in showing 45 years and nothing has changed, ponies, particularly the plaited have always been doped! i would think probably at least one pony in each HOYS qual...its common practice and i'm not talking about the relatively new over the counter calmers. the thing is i and many other people i know are aware this happens, and still choose to go showing. showing is a relatively closed shop and the producers stick together on this one - you wouldn't find them objecting to each other. some judges will be aware, others see things through rose coloured glasses but at the end of the day the evidence tells us it is tolerated. people don't get punished for it, the opposite - they win the classes! just my humble opinion. it looks as though its mostly accepted and people turn a blind eye or are blissfully unaware. I am so so sorry to say that I believe every word you have said is true, I do however think it is getting worse
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Post by Philippa on Sept 21, 2017 19:55:46 GMT
interesting reading, adding my thoughts for what they are worth - i've been in showing 45 years and nothing has changed, ponies, particularly the plaited have always been doped! i would think probably at least one pony in each HOYS qual...its common practice and i'm not talking about the relatively new over the counter calmers. the thing is i and many other people i know are aware this happens, and still choose to go showing. showing is a relatively closed shop and the producers stick together on this one - you wouldn't find them objecting to each other. some judges will be aware, others see things through rose coloured glasses but at the end of the day the evidence tells us it is tolerated. people don't get punished for it, the opposite - they win the classes! just my humble opinion. it looks as though its mostly accepted and people turn a blind eye or are blissfully unaware. I am so so sorry to say that I believe every word you have said is true, I do however think it is getting worse ^^^^^THIS^^^^^
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Post by gillwales on Sept 22, 2017 4:51:47 GMT
I can understand that the idea of putting a levy on classes is a good idea, however please do not forget that most Secretaries are unpaid, giving their time for free, they would in effect be tax collectors for the different societies. This is going to be complicated and as we saw the Horse and Hound article , the cost of the tests are £1200, it is going to take a lot of £2 levies to pay for one test; well 600!
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Post by honeypot on Sept 22, 2017 10:56:50 GMT
I would make it a H&S/welfare issue, like alcohol if someone looks drunk you should not allow them to drive. So you put it in the rules that if an animal has symptoms that make it look as if its doped, lame or unwell, in the opinion of the judge or an officer of the show, it has to be withdrawn from the ring, and until it is inspected by a vet it can not compete in any other class,at their cost. Now if I thought that my animal looked unwell, I would want to know why or I would at least take it home. I was at one show where a horse collapsed in the lorry park as it had too much, now this is downright dangerous. I still can not believe it costs £1200 to do a blood test as the BHB do about 12-14,000 a year. I live near Newmarket so I will try and find out. There are still basic tests that do not involve blood tests which would indicate that the animal is not having a normal reaction to stimuli.
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Post by interesting on Sept 22, 2017 16:16:02 GMT
I am so so sorry to say that I believe every word you have said is true, I do however think it is getting worse ^^^^^THIS^^^^^ I was also thinking: no doping = no children's show ponies.
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Post by Philippa on Sept 22, 2017 17:41:39 GMT
I was also thinking: no doping = no children's show ponies. Our SP isn't doped 🙀🙀
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Post by tct2912 on Sept 22, 2017 17:46:49 GMT
Call me old fashion but would rather go in and win fair and square than have a massive chip on my conscious that I have drugged my pony up to the hilt to gain a placing. If we were competing for massive prize money I could [possibly understand all the dark dealings to get your horse/pony to perform, but bloody hell lets be fair a rosette and a qualification to a championship show. I really cannot understand how these people sleep at night or is it the case that winning means that much that they forget their morals.
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Post by DopeOnaRope on Sept 22, 2017 21:45:19 GMT
interesting reading, adding my thoughts for what they are worth - i've been in showing 45 years and nothing has changed, ponies, particularly the plaited have always been doped! i would think probably at least one pony in each HOYS qual...its common practice and i'm not talking about the relatively new over the counter calmers. the thing is i and many other people i know are aware this happens, and still choose to go showing. showing is a relatively closed shop and the producers stick together on this one - you wouldn't find them objecting to each other. some judges will be aware, others see things through rose coloured glasses but at the end of the day the evidence tells us it is tolerated. people don't get punished for it, the opposite - they win the classes! just my humble opinion. it looks as though its mostly accepted and people turn a blind eye or are blissfully unaware. I am so so sorry to say that I believe every word you have said is true, I do however think it is getting worse My pony was doped by a producer and when I found out I took the pony straight home from a high-profile show, had him tested immediately, test came back positive for a sedative that is more commonly used in mainland Europe for large livestock, cost well over £1,500 to do a broad-spectrum test (it is cheaper to test for a specific thing, e.g. Bute or ACP), sent the test result, my vet's report and a letter to two different societies and the office of the high profile show, and all I got was a routine letter basically telling me it was nothing to do with them because the test had not been carried out at their instruction. Committees completely closed ranks and refused to address my further communications on the matter. I was fully prepared to take the rap myself as the owner provided the producer was reprimanded for presenting a doped animal at the show, but no-one wanted to know. The substance in question had been given to my pony as a quick fix so that he could be quickly qualified and sold... to me. The reason no-one wanted to know... because they are ALL at it, or have been at one time or another. I have also had people advise me what to give a difficult pony so that it wouldn't be routinely detected, and other people openly admit that they have doped this or that horse at this or that show because they knew they wouldn't be tested. No rosette is worth it IMO. If you win fair and square, it really is a BIG achievement and something to be immensely proud of. Go do what your own conscience, and your love for your pony tell you is right...
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Objection procedure
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Post by Objection procedure on Sept 23, 2017 5:48:25 GMT
Dopeonarope you have left me open mouthed, although I suspected it was this bad to hear someone's personal experience and the subsequent closing of ranks against the honest competitor is still shocking. Feeling genuinely saddened
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Post by Picked on Sept 23, 2017 6:00:17 GMT
It's even more sad that some young producers can't ride an animal at a show without giving it a tube or two on a lorry. Calmer seems to be part of life now. No doubt animals will become resistant to it.
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Post by gillwales on Sept 23, 2017 6:25:01 GMT
I am so so sorry to say that I believe every word you have said is true, I do however think it is getting worse My pony was doped by a producer and when I found out I took the pony straight home from a high-profile show, had him tested immediately, test came back positive for a sedative that is more commonly used in mainland Europe for large livestock, cost well over £1,500 to do a broad-spectrum test (it is cheaper to test for a specific thing, e.g. Bute or ACP), sent the test result, my vet's report and a letter to two different societies and the office of the high profile show, and all I got was a routine letter basically telling me it was nothing to do with them because the test had not been carried out at their instruction. Committees completely closed ranks and refused to address my further communications on the matter. I was fully prepared to take the rap myself as the owner provided the producer was reprimanded for presenting a doped animal at the show, but no-one wanted to know. The substance in question had been given to my pony as a quick fix so that he could be quickly qualified and sold... to me. The reason no-one wanted to know... because they are ALL at it, or have been at one time or another. I have also had people advise me what to give a difficult pony so that it wouldn't be routinely detected, and other people openly admit that they have doped this or that horse at this or that show because they knew they wouldn't be tested. No rosette is worth it IMO. If you win fair and square, it really is a BIG achievement and something to be immensely proud of. Go do what your own conscience, and your love for your pony tell you is right... Why did you not take a civil action case against this producer? In fact I would have gone to Trading Standards, I am pretty confident that if this has happened at least it would be fraud and possibly a criminal act and I would have taken the evidence to the Police I certainly would not allow my child to ride a pony that required to be doped.
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Post by ponymad79 on Sept 23, 2017 6:34:51 GMT
I also believe every word you say DopeOnaRope why she didn't take it any further legally could be for many reasons gillwales .
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Post by gillwales on Sept 23, 2017 7:09:03 GMT
I also believe every word you say DopeOnaRope why she didn't take it any further legally could be for many reasons gillwales . Certainly, but if she felt able to share part of her story with us, why not the rest? I feel I have asked a relevant question. Afteral this is an extremely serious subject and should not be taken lightly. It is far more important than which pony gets a ticket for HOYS, people who dope ponies are putting children's lives at risk, and those who are around the animal. Not every horse or pony react well with sedation, some have extreme reactions to it and can be unpredictable. Personally I do not think there is this routine doping that this thread suggests. In the years I have been around horses and ponies I have only seen a handful of animals I have considered had been doped. It seems to me that the bent judges thread and over height ponies have been done to death. It has been explained re unsoundness so this is the latest theory on why some ponies win and others do not
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Post by ponymad79 on Sept 23, 2017 8:15:36 GMT
I totally agree that not all routinely dope ponies but having been around showing a long time i do think societies do turn a blind eye if it's suits . These threads can be very damaging to individuals and we know many are done out of spite and jealousy etc and that is totally wrong but when so many people are clearly fed up with it something needs to be done . Sadly i don't see it changing if those with the power don't want it to .
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Post by Funny That! on Sept 23, 2017 19:25:38 GMT
The ROR released the results of dope tests they did the other year. 3 horses tested positive. Who got the punishment? The owners! The owners and horses got the ban and the fine. The producers got away scott free!
Funny That!
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Post by observation on Sept 23, 2017 21:07:22 GMT
Well something is working, after all one of the last HOYS qualifiers has been stripped of its ticket for failing its test. However to be sending out the right message the results really should be widely publicised as it seems to have been kept rather quiet so far. Whether formal action is taken against the owner or producer wouldn't really matter, as I would have thought the negative publicity isn't really going to help the producers business. Maybe showing isn't quite in the cess pit after all...
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Objection procedure
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Post by Objection procedure on Sept 24, 2017 6:27:00 GMT
Well something is working, after all one of the last HOYS qualifiers has been stripped of its ticket for failing its test. However to be sending out the right message the results really should be widely publicised as it seems to have been kept rather quiet so far. Whether formal action is taken against the owner or producer wouldn't really matter, as I would have thought the negative publicity isn't really going to help the producers business. Maybe showing isn't quite in the cess pit after all... Well this has to be the most positive post on here, rules broken and action taken, but as you say it should be made very public and I for one haven't heard anything about it, but thanks for letting us know
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Post by DopeOnaRope on Sept 24, 2017 21:19:43 GMT
My pony was doped by a producer and when I found out I took the pony straight home from a high-profile show, had him tested immediately, test came back positive for a sedative that is more commonly used in mainland Europe for large livestock, cost well over £1,500 to do a broad-spectrum test (it is cheaper to test for a specific thing, e.g. Bute or ACP), sent the test result, my vet's report and a letter to two different societies and the office of the high profile show, and all I got was a routine letter basically telling me it was nothing to do with them because the test had not been carried out at their instruction. Committees completely closed ranks and refused to address my further communications on the matter. I was fully prepared to take the rap myself as the owner provided the producer was reprimanded for presenting a doped animal at the show, but no-one wanted to know. The substance in question had been given to my pony as a quick fix so that he could be quickly qualified and sold... to me. The reason no-one wanted to know... because they are ALL at it, or have been at one time or another. I have also had people advise me what to give a difficult pony so that it wouldn't be routinely detected, and other people openly admit that they have doped this or that horse at this or that show because they knew they wouldn't be tested. No rosette is worth it IMO. If you win fair and square, it really is a BIG achievement and something to be immensely proud of. Go do what your own conscience, and your love for your pony tell you is right... Why did you not take a civil action case against this producer? In fact I would have gone to Trading Standards, I am pretty confident that if this has happened at least it would be fraud and possibly a criminal act and I would have taken the evidence to the Police I certainly would not allow my child to ride a pony that required to be doped. I did indeed embark upon a legal case, but when my property and ponies were threatened with violence my husband persuaded me to drop the case. Things became so awful that it made me ill with stress, and it would have been difficult to follow through without my husband's support and he's not in to the whole pony scene and would rather just let things be and have a quiet life. I'm more of a fighter; however, it's all very well that the law theoretically protects us from threats and so on, but you try getting any sort of intervention when it just your word against someone else's in terms of the threats, and then spend every night worrying that your stables are going to get torched... The police could not and would not act as the threats were verbal and could not be proven, and the doping was considered a civil matter. And believe me, in person, I do tell it like it is when said producer is mentioned. A while later someone else had the same experience and asked me to join forces, but I had moved on and did not want to rake it all up again. With hindsight I wish I had been stronger, but at the time, for my own health, it was better to walk away.
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Post by Well said on Sept 25, 2017 7:49:42 GMT
What a worrying story and I really feel for the position you were put in. Did you complain to the relevant society regarding the bullying and threats? With much stronger social media and bullying rules in place now perhaps they should have taken action? I am guessing this horrible incident was some time ago? As I have said before there are some excellent producers out there in the pony and horse world and it must surely be in there interests as well as owners to 'weed out' the dodgy, unprofessional ones. I know BSPS has a 'acredited trainer/groom' scheme maybe it is time for a Professional Body for Producers like in most other trades. Again I think it would take all the societies to work together and an independant body to regulate - not an easy task but surely something worth looking at.
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Post by gillwales on Sept 25, 2017 7:52:39 GMT
Why did you not take a civil action case against this producer? In fact I would have gone to Trading Standards, I am pretty confident that if this has happened at least it would be fraud and possibly a criminal act and I would have taken the evidence to the Police I certainly would not allow my child to ride a pony that required to be doped. I did indeed embark upon a legal case, but when my property and ponies were threatened with violence my husband persuaded me to drop the case. Things became so awful that it made me ill with stress, and it would have been difficult to follow through without my husband's support and he's not in to the whole pony scene and would rather just let things be and have a quiet life. I'm more of a fighter; however, it's all very well that the law theoretically protects us from threats and so on, but you try getting any sort of intervention when it just your word against someone else's in terms of the threats, and then spend every night worrying that your stables are going to get torched... The police could not and would not act as the threats were verbal and could not be proven, and the doping was considered a civil matter. And believe me, in person, I do tell it like it is when said producer is mentioned. A while later someone else had the same experience and asked me to join forces, but I had moved on and did not want to rake it all up again. With hindsight I wish I had been stronger, but at the time, for my own health, it was better to walk away. I am sorry it did not work out for you but I also hope you understand why I asked the questions. Good luck with your ponies in the future.
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sarahp
Happy to help
Posts: 9,510
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Post by sarahp on Sept 25, 2017 8:20:58 GMT
I can vouch for there being excellent producers out there - I have never had a problem with any I have used, both ridden and IH, which isn't many, they tend to be long lasting. But I have done lots of watching and information gathering before choosing and choose very carefully! I do have a mental list of some I definitely wouldn't use though.
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