mel b
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Posts: 522
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Post by mel b on Jul 20, 2015 22:21:20 GMT
Sadly it wasn't just the 14.2 that the judging was questionable, the large hacks were also very disappointing.
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Post by Years and Years on Jul 21, 2015 0:49:03 GMT
I have been a member of horse gossip for what seems like forever and the same topic of unfair judging crops up every year and the same points are raised, debated, argued over and the same responses are given.
I show because I enjoy the day out catching up with fellow competitors and I now take pleasure in seeing the ponies/horses improve over time. But...... for me it wasn't always like this and I had to take a new look and change my perspective on showing.
There will always be favours, so try to avoid the ones that you have an idea about. There are also some very good judges that make the occasional mistakes, I am sure most of the time this is not intentional, judges are only human and showing is a matter of opinion and opinions are governed by emotions and that is where judging and friendship becomes messy. Then there is what I call the gold judge who is whiter than white - only the very few are given this status, this isn't about who likes my ponies/horses this is about how I see them judge a class, it doesn't matter where I end up as long as I feel I have been judged well on that day. I'm sure that lots of judges will read this and be outraged the way that I categorise however as you are entitled to your opinion on my exhibits I am entitled to judge your way of judging which is based on my opinion.
Finally, the category of the corrupt fraudulent judge I don't mean favours I mean the absolute rule breaking, back handing, lying, re-registering etc judge, thankfully there are not too many of those but they do exist.
So.... to enjoy showing you need to stick to some rules as follows:
Never bet more than you can afford to lose i.e. weigh up the costs before you go - it hurts so much more if you don't win - if you struggle to pay the hoys and ri entries then don't enter them and drop down a level - I know everyone wants to get there but sometimes the cost is just too great.
In the collecting ring size up the competition - how many exhibits do you like, you will always find 3 or 4 that are as good as yours unless you have the next superstar which in all honesty is doubtful as they only appear once every 5 - 10 years. So be realistic take off the rose tinted specs you need to be subjective about your equine.
Knowledge - if all the people that posted on horsegossip about correct way of going followed it through to the show ring then wow UK showing would be a sight to behold - unfortunately talking about correct way of going doesn't mean that a. you are skilled enough to produce it and b. that you really know what this means instead of just picking up on things you've read or heard. Sorry I know I am being harsh but I'm being truthful, I will be learning until I leave this world and I still will never know enough there is always someone who goes better than me, who has a better equine than me, that rides better than me, that has more fair and showmanship than me and so it goes on but I have to accept that fact and move past it.
Finally, I do know what I am talking about I have had both the highs and the lows I have stood where some of you stand now I have felt the unfairness of it all and it made me so unhappy I became what I am not and I had to change, to accept showing as it is because showing will never change no matter how much we would wish it too - it can't because judging is based on opinion and this will always conflict with someone elses.
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Post by lucynlizzysmum on Jul 21, 2015 4:14:28 GMT
Wise words Years and years!
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Post by Philippa on Jul 21, 2015 6:26:12 GMT
I have been a member of horse gossip for what seems like forever and the same topic of unfair judging crops up every year and the same points are raised, debated, argued over and the same responses are given. I show because I enjoy the day out catching up with fellow competitors and I now take pleasure in seeing the ponies/horses improve over time. But...... for me it wasn't always like this and I had to take a new look and change my perspective on showing. There will always be favours, so try to avoid the ones that you have an idea about. There are also some very good judges that make the occasional mistakes, I am sure most of the time this is not intentional, judges are only human and showing is a matter of opinion and opinions are governed by emotions and that is where judging and friendship becomes messy. Then there is what I call the gold judge who is whiter than white - only the very few are given this status, this isn't about who likes my ponies/horses this is about how I see them judge a class, it doesn't matter where I end up as long as I feel I have been judged well on that day. I'm sure that lots of judges will read this and be outraged the way that I categorise however as you are entitled to your opinion on my exhibits I am entitled to judge your way of judging which is based on my opinion. Finally, the category of the corrupt fraudulent judge I don't mean favours I mean the absolute rule breaking, back handing, lying, re-registering etc judge, thankfully there are not too many of those but they do exist. So.... to enjoy showing you need to stick to some rules as follows: Never bet more than you can afford to lose i.e. weigh up the costs before you go - it hurts so much more if you don't win - if you struggle to pay the hoys and ri entries then don't enter them and drop down a level - I know everyone wants to get there but sometimes the cost is just too great. In the collecting ring size up the competition - how many exhibits do you like, you will always find 3 or 4 that are as good as yours unless you have the next superstar which in all honesty is doubtful as they only appear once every 5 - 10 years. So be realistic take off the rose tinted specs you need to be subjective about your equine. Knowledge - if all the people that posted on horsegossip about correct way of going followed it through to the show ring then wow UK showing would be a sight to behold - unfortunately talking about correct way of going doesn't mean that a. you are skilled enough to produce it and b. that you really know what this means instead of just picking up on things you've read or heard. Sorry I know I am being harsh but I'm being truthful, I will be learning until I leave this world and I still will never know enough there is always someone who goes better than me, who has a better equine than me, that rides better than me, that has more fair and showmanship than me and so it goes on but I have to accept that fact and move past it. Finally, I do know what I am talking about I have had both the highs and the lows I have stood where some of you stand now I have felt the unfairness of it all and it made me so unhappy I became what I am not and I had to change, to accept showing as it is because showing will never change no matter how much we would wish it too - it can't because judging is based on opinion and this will always conflict with someone elses. Very well said.
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Can't remember password
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Post by Can't remember password on Jul 21, 2015 6:49:15 GMT
if it was after the pony's show that it would not stand still then there would be nothing to be done as the marks were already done. this may not be the case. but the pony did get well marked down on its show but managed to make them up on conformation. it is a beautiful young pony. i am not a fan of the marks system as i think it misses a lot of aspects such as initial go round, final walk round and standing patiently in line. remember also that the judge can only judge what they see and they cant be watching all of them all of the time. if it happens when the judges back is turned then it never happened. x
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Post by janetbushell on Jul 21, 2015 7:31:52 GMT
if it was after the pony's show that it would not stand still then there would be nothing to be done as the marks were already done. this may not be the case. but the pony did get well marked down on its show but managed to make them up on conformation. it is a beautiful young pony. i am not a fan of the marks system as i think it misses a lot of aspects such as initial go round, final walk round and standing patiently in line. remember also that the judge can only judge what they see and they cant be watching all of them all of the time. if it happens when the judges back is turned then it never happened. x Whilst not referring to any specific class the individual show marks also take into account the go round & to cover your other point, if the marks have been given the judge is allowed to alter the marks should circumstances occur where this may be necessary. See HOYS rules Judging of classes rules 8 & 9 Whilst obviously there is no longer a final walk round in classes using marks, it is surprising what a judge can see & hear regarding animals not behaving in the line up.
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BeCarefulWhatYouWishFor
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Post by BeCarefulWhatYouWishFor on Jul 21, 2015 9:49:36 GMT
if it was after the pony's show that it would not stand still then there would be nothing to be done as the marks were already done. this may not be the case. but the pony did get well marked down on its show but managed to make them up on conformation. it is a beautiful young pony. i am not a fan of the marks system as i think it misses a lot of aspects such as initial go round, final walk round and standing patiently in line. remember also that the judge can only judge what they see and they cant be watching all of them all of the time. if it happens when the judges back is turned then it never happened. x Whilst not referring to any specific class the individual show marks also take into account the go round & to cover your other point, if the marks have been given the judge is allowed to alter the marks should circumstances occur where this may be necessary. See HOYS rules Judging of classes rules 8 & 9 Whilst obviously there is no longer a final walk round in classes using marks, it is surprising what a judge can see & hear regarding animals not behaving in the line up. Yes, indeed. I once scored an all-time low of a 10 for the individual show even though it was a lovely, correct performance - why? Because pony had not stood still in the line! Fair and clear. And others in the class had their marks reduced down to a 10 after their individual show for the same reason. I wish more judges had this much courage and decisiveness. However, I think if we pursue an argument of imposing more specific criteria for using the mark scheme we are at risk of ruining our sport. Even in dressage there aren't fixed mark deductions for particular errors or faults - the degree of the error is for the judge to 'judge'. If there were, then we wouldn't need judges - you'd have your fixed conformation mark, because that's what people seem to want, a permanent, immovable mark that takes no account of the standard in the class on the day and could, technically speaking, have all ponies on the same mark, then you'd perform your show which would be recorded by computer and fed in to a programme that would deduct 5 marks for a wrong leg, 10 marks for not standing still, etc. and hey presto at the end you'd get some results. Notwithstanding the odd wrong leg, you'd get almost exactly the same set of results at every show, with lots of ponies on the same score, and how boring and pointless would that be? The fact that one day my pony gets a 37 for conformation because the judge prefers a bigger-built type, and the next day gets a 48 because the judge prefers them lighter and smaller, and that one day he gets a 45 for his show even with a momentary wrong leg, and the next day gets a 35 when I thought he'd gone really well, means that if all the pieces of the jigsaw fit in to place on the same day I am actually in with a chance!!! The fact that things are variable means that it is worth competing, worth travelling, worth spending the money, because every day is a new and fresh opportunity.
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Post by fatcob on Jul 21, 2015 15:15:16 GMT
Becarefulwahtyouwishfor..... Spot on!
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Post by Springtime on Jul 21, 2015 17:14:12 GMT
that is interesting to know.
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Post by gillwales on Jul 22, 2015 14:41:16 GMT
For those that think that they are black listed if they complain, the standard proceedure is for names to be blacked out wheb a letter does before the panel dealing with these sorts of issues, so nobody knows wh made the complaint. Also if enough people make the same complaint then there can be little issue with the matter.
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Post by CarolineNelson on Jul 22, 2015 20:35:52 GMT
Caroline Nelson , can you in your position as a judge offer am opinion on what you would of awarded a show mark to a pony that reared in its show and cantered incorrectly all the way round on a wrong leg?? Hi Ponymum. As I wasn't at the venue of which you write, so certainly wasn't judging, wasn't training, absolutely didn't see the 'rear' - didn't see the 'wrong leg' - indeed have no idea what classification this is in relation to, if it's ok I'd prefer to stand out on this particular issue. I have a strong view regarding 'wrong legs' but mine is more of a conformational nature. There are a myriad reasons why an equine feels more comfortable (even briefly) on what to a human appears a "wrong leg". If it helps though, in a 50% / 50% situation, my 'benchmark is 40%. In my time, I have given a 49% and I have given a 1%. On a 60% / 40% basis I gave a 59% to the renowned Show Cob 'Super Ted' for the MOST fantastic ride, the last time he won at HOYS (then at Wembley) before his retirement. Does the 100% animal exist? I do know of one which might, but it may well not have seen a saddle yet. And may not ever contest ridden classes. And my 1%? It was a WHP which somehow managed to enter by one gate, leave a trail of total destruction for the poor Course Builder, but miraculously left by the other gate!
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Post by suggestion on Jul 27, 2015 12:17:37 GMT
Whilst I was waiting for my class to start later in the day at 15a I sheltered from the rain and watched the classes in the ring by the shelter, in one class particular a SHP was very naughty not only once but at least three times and in view of the judges, I thought the judges were pointing to it when the class came back to walk for it to be sent out but the pony was called into first place, then when it performed its individual performance it threw its head but was only lowered one place to second and qualified for Hoys. I don't know the pony or any of its connections but clearly the judges did, surely it's about time especially for hoys classes taking into consideration the cost of entries and travelling to have a stipendiary steward as a referee watching from the sidelines.
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Post by springer on Jul 27, 2015 15:04:53 GMT
Whilst I was waiting for my class to start later in the day at 15a I sheltered from the rain and watched the classes in the ring by the shelter, in one class particular a SHP was very naughty not only once but at least three times and in view of the judges, I thought the judges were pointing to it when the class came back to walk for it to be sent out but the pony was called into first place, then when it performed its individual performance it threw its head but was only lowered one place to second and qualified for Hoys. I don't know the pony or any of its connections but clearly the judges did, surely it's about time especially for hoys classes taking into consideration the cost of entries and travelling to have a stipendiary steward as a referee watching from the sidelines. What a good idea. A referee would be brilliant but it might offend some judges unfortunately.
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Post by Guestless on Jul 27, 2015 18:06:58 GMT
Whilst I was waiting for my class to start later in the day at 15a I sheltered from the rain and watched the classes in the ring by the shelter, in one class particular a SHP was very naughty not only once but at least three times and in view of the judges, I thought the judges were pointing to it when the class came back to walk for it to be sent out but the pony was called into first place, then when it performed its individual performance it threw its head but was only lowered one place to second and qualified for Hoys. I don't know the pony or any of its connections but clearly the judges did, surely it's about time especially for hoys classes taking into consideration the cost of entries and travelling to have a stipendiary steward as a referee watching from the sidelines. What a good idea. A referee would be brilliant but it might offend some judges unfortunately. A referee or an agreed protocol for certain errors, eg 10 marks deducted for a wrong leg, error in set show, etc.
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Post by lucynlizzysmum on Jul 27, 2015 19:02:46 GMT
I suppose you could judge like a workers eg 50 out of 50 for a show with no error, wrong leg deduct 10, buck deduct 15 and so on then 30 for conformation and 20 for overall impression. However, how will you police the show - would everything have to be recorded - what cost would that put on to entry fees?
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Post by lion on Jul 27, 2015 19:39:54 GMT
Sugestion, what a brilliant idea, I think we pay the societies enough money,for what, they allow this blatant bad judging to go on because it suits them,lucynlizziesmun, I can see where you are coming from it would be hard to police unless we competitors take the responsibility of doing something, could this work, we all compete in different classes, why not video the class we compete in, then if there is evidence of bad judging perhaps the societies will have to do something, I for one would not mind contributing toward employiny an independent referee, these societies do need a good shake up
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Post by Sew on Jul 27, 2015 19:50:48 GMT
I would hate to go down the route of having set marks deductions for wrong legs etc.
This would surely lead to boring regimented shows, with no flair, prescence etc.
SHow horses are not police horses the best ones are the ones who have charm and charisma and are a joy to watch. Precise movements are dressage and you will find marking of every move there.
I do a bit of judging and it can be very hard. When there is only a couple that are true to type in say a m&m class, and they wrong leg briefly, are they to be put below animals which frankly it is hard to distinguish what breed they are, but do a foot perfect show?
The other day I was judging and one in the class was a beautiful model, the obvious winner from the outside, but when asked to trot back to me almost tripped himself up plaiting with his front legs. The others in the class were not true to type and were grossly fat. What is worse? How would you place them? I ended up having to pull the first horse as the winner, but just knew there would be comments outside about its lack of straight movements, but then again I if I had placed one of the others there would have been accusations of putting cobs up in a hunter class!
Again in say a cob class, do you put up the beautiful model of a cob who has puffy joints or who turns his toes in, or the hogged fat hunter which radically lacks bone, but is clean limbed? d**ned for whatever you do by one lot or the other in these cases too!
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sarahp
Happy to help
Posts: 9,510
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Post by sarahp on Jul 27, 2015 21:19:36 GMT
Dressage may need to be precise, but still needs animals with flair, personality. and expression, not robots. Yes, movements are marked individually, but each one includes many different elements and it's down to the judge to give one mark for the movement as a whole.
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Post by chipmokey on Jul 27, 2015 21:48:00 GMT
I don't think it could work for set deductions of marks for defined errors. A borderline hump in an extension, for example, is very different from a massive buck and could give rise to more arguments as to whether or not it was a buck. It should therefore be left to the judge as to how many marks to deduct. Similarly wrong legs vary in how quickly and smoothly they are corrected and should be penalised accordingly on a sliding scale. I am interested to see earlier posts as one of ours once stood up slightly, not a full rear, and the judge said she would have to eliminate him as his front feet had left the ground. I fully accepted this and assumed this was due to some guidance provided to judges (he went on to do a reasonable show with no further problems) but there should be some consistency in how this is dealt with.
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Post by tootrue on Jul 29, 2015 6:42:47 GMT
In the next ten mins I am going to stand at my back door and throw money to the wind....... After reading this thread I might as well... Connections connections n conspiracy .... This is showing for heavens sake ...... Things need to change before we all give up ... It's not every class or judge but it needs to be stopped We are the voice..... Time to shout Exactly ....There are some brilliant fair judges and others .....well they do not deserve to be on panels one judge recently for a HOYS qualifier had dinner night before the classes with the winner of one of them absoulute disgrace...how do I know we sat behind them ...even got a picture ? I am unable to make a complaint as when saw said judge was judging did not enter our pony as I knew who would get the ticket ...sure enough sorted so they did....tried their hardest for their best friend to get another class but thank god ride judge thought different or was it a case of ...'u can have the winner of that class but you not having friends in every class '
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Post by the showing register on Jul 29, 2015 7:32:05 GMT
Hi tootrue
I suggest that you join up get a user name and post your photo so the whole debate becomes transparent everything needs airing to improve the sport and people such as you can do their part but not by being a guest and no proof
Wendy
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Post by Philippa on Jul 29, 2015 7:44:35 GMT
In the next ten mins I am going to stand at my back door and throw money to the wind....... After reading this thread I might as well... Connections connections n conspiracy .... This is showing for heavens sake ...... Things need to change before we all give up ... It's not every class or judge but it needs to be stopped We are the voice..... Time to shout Exactly ....There are some brilliant fair judges and others .....well they do not deserve to be on panels one judge recently for a HOYS qualifier had dinner night before the classes with the winner of one of them absoulute disgrace...how do I know we sat behind them ...even got a picture ? I am unable to make a complaint as when saw said judge was judging did not enter our pony as I knew who would get the ticket ...sure enough sorted so they did....tried their hardest for their best friend to get another class but thank god ride judge thought different or was it a case of ...'u can have the winner of that class but you not having friends in every class ' I would suggest that having photographic evidence would not require an entry in the same class in order to make a complaint??
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Post by fatcob on Jul 29, 2015 8:36:31 GMT
Volatis has already requested we contact them with our concerns. If the same names crop up from different sources ( as I am sure they will) action will be taken.
The societies know who their repeat offenders are and I am sure a letter from HOYS along the lines of.... We take the governance and reputation of our show and qualifiers very seriously, we have concerns that under your stewardship these standards are not being met... Your current status as holder of our qualifiers is currently under review. We look forward to your proposals to bring your standards into line with those expected.
Now that WOULD put the cat in the pigeons!
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Post by Bool on Jul 29, 2015 11:53:19 GMT
Volatis has already requested we contact them with our concerns. If the same names crop up from different sources ( as I am sure they will) action will be taken. The societies know who their repeat offenders are and I am sure a letter from HOYS along the lines of.... We take the governance and reputation of our show and qualifiers very seriously, we have concerns that under your stewardship these standards are not being met... Your current status as holder of our qualifiers is currently under review. We look forward to your proposals to bring your standards into line with those expected. Now that WOULD put the cat in the pigeons! But it is HOYS who now set the rules for all the qualifiers, so its them that should be cleaning up their act?
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Post by Guestless on Jul 29, 2015 12:10:10 GMT
Exactly ....There are some brilliant fair judges and others .....well they do not deserve to be on panels one judge recently for a HOYS qualifier had dinner night before the classes with the winner of one of them absoulute disgrace...how do I know we sat behind them ...even got a picture ? I am unable to make a complaint as when saw said judge was judging did not enter our pony as I knew who would get the ticket ...sure enough sorted so they did....tried their hardest for their best friend to get another class but thank god ride judge thought different or was it a case of ...'u can have the winner of that class but you not having friends in every class ' I would suggest that having photographic evidence would not require an entry in the same class in order to make a complaint?? Probably, but the problem is that having dinner with the judge isn't actually breaking any rules. It may be unethical and ill-advised but is it anything more?
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Post by tootrue on Jul 29, 2015 12:34:17 GMT
Hi tootrue I suggest that you join up get a user name and post your photo so the whole debate becomes transparent everything needs airing to improve the sport and people such as you can do their part but not by being a guest and no proof Wendy Wendy - the photo has already been offered to the show concerned and relevant society and we have been told as we where not entered in the class concerned than I cannot make a complaint. I am NOT putting the photo on a public forum or my user name as when have done something similar previously the repurcussions for ourselves and jockeys where not pleasant. Maybe no rules broken but having a very friendly evening meal with a competitor the night before u judge and then give a hoys ticket to that person is perhaps not wise . What I will say it was not at TSR . Just shows how ridiculous it all is and I think some people take things too far .
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Post by the showing register on Jul 29, 2015 12:34:45 GMT
No its nothing more but there was a great piece in the paper yesterday about the House of Lords which has a few problems with honorable behaviour the writer said." To do the right thing because it is right not because it is written " (ie rules )
This is what we must aim to promote
Wendy
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Post by the showing register on Jul 29, 2015 12:37:09 GMT
Sorry missed out a post tootrue I suggest you send it all to HOYS they are pleased to receive any information as FatCob has said or if you prefer send it in confidence to us and we will pass it on.
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Post by Philippa on Jul 29, 2015 13:40:52 GMT
I would suggest that having photographic evidence would not require an entry in the same class in order to make a complaint?? Probably, but the problem is that having dinner with the judge isn't actually breaking any rules. It may be unethical and ill-advised but is it anything more? Yes I know what you are saying and thought about proof when I wrote it. I suppose it's down to ethical/unethical at the end of the day.
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Post by fatcob on Jul 29, 2015 14:19:19 GMT
[/quote]But it is HOYS who now set the rules for all the qualifiers, so its them that should be cleaning up their act? [/quote]
But it is the societies that administer and govern the qualifiers
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