|
Post by Oh Dear!! on Jul 19, 2015 13:25:18 GMT
Facey Judging = TSR Show Ponies Today ...... Thats all I have to say Wrong Legs on both legs, Bucks and ponies generally not going forward getting placed So did you write a complaint to the Soiety involved?
|
|
|
Post by Oh Dear!! on Jul 19, 2015 13:37:58 GMT
Gillwales both you and I know that complaining does no good. As with this forum we all have a moan then it goes to the bottom of the pile of other forums.
What we must hope for is honesty and integrity from judges. Some appreciate that £50 entry, Fuel Costs etc is a lot of money to the majority and the competitors all pay the same so should expect to be judged the same. I'm far to long in the tooth to see that a complaint to a society would change the situation
I don't exhibit anymore but stll like to show an Intrest and was slightly shocked at today's judging there
Don't know who the lady judge was and neither will I find out but it's an awful shame to ponies further on down the line that did what was asked to be put below ponies that wrong leg twice etc etc Very Demorilising for these riders
|
|
|
Post by silvo on Jul 19, 2015 15:08:00 GMT
With respect, if you're not prepared to raise the issue with the TSR directly then why do it here? You've identified the society, show and class (classes if you and the previous poster are not talking about the same one) you think there is a problem with. You know TSR will see it, you know it takes no effort to find out which judge you're talking about (it took me less than a minute) and you know the winner and their associates (if there are any) will be identified.
If you're not prepared to stick your head above the parapet then why pi** on someone's chips here?
|
|
|
Post by Oh Dear!! on Jul 19, 2015 15:34:02 GMT
The reason why it was raised here is because the thread covers the topic! It's a gossip forum that you have subscribed too. That's the point of it .
Maybe the Society's should also start such Forums that they could peruse at their leisure.
|
|
|
Post by thatboythatgirl on Jul 19, 2015 16:00:15 GMT
I did not see the sp class today so cant comment directly on them. I understand that people get annoyed by a wrong leg beating something that didn't go on the wrong BUT if the pony that wrong legged it is in self carriage covers the ground and works from behind does it deserve to be beat against something over bent and rushed? Personally no I don't think so because a wrong leg is a small mistake normally from rider error which a good judge be able to see! should for a pony that's way of going is far superior be d**ned so badly it should be put to the end of line like people seem to think they should!
|
|
|
Post by maxandpaddy on Jul 19, 2015 16:23:16 GMT
Totally agree.... a wrong leg is usually a rider error and a lovely pony shouldn't be too harshly penalised for it, if the rest of the show/conformation was good. What would be nice though is to see a good solid show rewarded in more classes, something like the BSPS Best Rider award, maybe branching out a bit and being included separately by individual shows to acknowledge a riders efforts and a pony/horse doing a good show xx
|
|
on the fence again!!!
Guest
|
Post by on the fence again!!! on Jul 19, 2015 18:37:59 GMT
Facey Judging = TSR Show Ponies Today ...... Thats all I have to say Wrong Legs on both legs, Bucks and ponies generally not going forward getting placed Well then get of your professional high horse and do something about it as suggested .....yet another moaner hiding behind " a guess who i am name!!!!"........you should really become a judge if your that good......or are you already? ?
|
|
|
Post by SPOT ON! on Jul 19, 2015 19:41:39 GMT
Totally agree with all of the comments about the 14.2s at TSR today. Could hear gasps of shock when the results were announced, everyone was genuinely startled at the result.
Spoke to a fellow spectator earlier about the possibility of complaints but we both agreed it would be pointless. She has previously put in a complaint about very very facey judging and not a thing was done about it. Not only that, she has been "blacklisted" by certain judges who are friends with those who the complaint was made about and now there is no point going under them.
Absolutely appalling judging. I know TSR come on here to reply to comments sometimes and am intrigued as to how they will respond. This is clearly a bigger issue and not just a case of "sour grapes" due to the amount of people who have commented about it.
|
|
|
Post by Robespierre on Jul 19, 2015 20:08:06 GMT
You only have to look at how whistle-blowers and complainants are treated in some professional walks of life where there IS supposed legal accountability to realise that sticking one's head above the parapet frequently results in getting shot down. That is why the metaphor is so apt!
One of the great things about social media is that there is power in numbers and in collective will. If people want revolution in the way that things are done, in government, in politics, in monarchies, in any sort of power-base, they don't send a polite, signed letter to the powers that be, because at best that results in being ostracised, and at worst can result in being 'removed'; no, they join the march of anonymous, faceless, masses because only in their numbers do they have a chance to over-turn power. Social media is a (mostly) non-violent form of just such protest, and I think it's right and valid that it should be used to highlight issues in any form of corrupt power-base without any risk to the complainant, whether that's something as trivial as showing, or something more important in life. And those who want to deny that any corruption goes on, or say that people should only complain via official channels, or defend indefensible judging decisions, are just sucking up to the power-base and nailing their allegiance to the existing powers.
Great things can be achieved through the revolt of the many... Just saying.
|
|
|
Post by snowman on Jul 19, 2015 20:23:09 GMT
Putting the blame at the door of the TSR is very harsh. When shows book judges they do this in good faith, they hope judges will judge what is front of them on the day, and the marks will reflect the animals performance that on that day.
To blame the TSR is wrong, they are purely the show that runs the classes, for people to enter.
If you have an issue with the results, put your money where your mouth is and make an official complaint - do NOT expect the very hard working team at the TSR to make it for you.
|
|
|
Post by SPOT ON! on Jul 19, 2015 20:30:49 GMT
snowman, just wanted to clarify that I was not placing the blame on the TSR themselves. I am sure that we all understand that it the judges themselves who are at fault, however it is the duty of the society deal with complaints of this nature.
In these situations, a formal complaint would not be helpful as "Robespierre" has pointed out. Safety in numbers is unfortunately the way people will deal with this. Until a large number of people come forward at once, no individual would be so brave/silly to put their name to the complaint and be ostracised by the showing community.
|
|
|
Post by SPOT ON! on Jul 19, 2015 20:32:00 GMT
snowman, just wanted to clarify that I was not placing the blame on the TSR themselves. I am sure that we all understand that it the judges themselves who are at fault, however it is the duty of the society deal with complaints of this nature.
In these situations, a formal complaint would not be helpful as "Robespierre" has pointed out. Safety in numbers is unfortunately the way people will deal with this. Until a large number of people come forward at once, no individual would be so brave/silly to put their name to the complaint and be ostracised by the showing community.
|
|
|
Post by bigmama on Jul 19, 2015 21:02:18 GMT
I did not see the sp class today so cant comment directly on them. I understand that people get annoyed by a wrong leg beating something that didn't go on the wrong BUT if the pony that wrong legged it is in self carriage covers the ground and works from behind does it deserve to be beat against something over bent and rushed? Personally no I don't think so because a wrong leg is a small mistake normally from rider error which a good judge be able to see! should for a pony that's way of going is far superior be d**ned so badly it should be put to the end of line like people seem to think they should! I did not see that class either but the O.P. states, "the winner of the 14.2 class would not stand for the judge its front legs left the floor then did 2 wrong legs but still won the class" ... whilst I agree with the point you raise, Thatboythatgirl, surely continued bad behaviour must be properly penalised, this is a children's ridden class after all
|
|
|
Post by ponymum on Jul 19, 2015 21:26:38 GMT
The said pony got a ride mark of 37!!!!!!!!!!!!! SO may be that was 3 marks deducted for a rear and 5 for each of the wrong legs!! Interestingly , it was nowhere nearly the lowest mark of the class, another got 22 , to which I would love to know how the judge came to award this? We need more clear clarification on marking . And I also think that given a sp is a type not a breed , the class should be judged more towards the performance than the conformation - so a 60/40 split .... I dont think ANYBODY is blaming TSR , but it is so unfair when you pay upwards of £50 to enter , then maybe another 100 in fuel to be beaten by a pony that has given a disobedient show. I have to say the conf judge gave it 48 so a clear 3 marks higher than anything else, so had it been marked down to maybe 0-10 for its show, it wouldnt of won.
ETA - I dont know the jockey personally , but I am sure she was probably as shocked as everyone else when it stayed top ....
|
|
|
Post by the showing register on Jul 19, 2015 21:46:04 GMT
Good evening everyone
I have only just come on this thread and although I was at the show all day I did not see this class. All the posters who think we will not look into it are wrong ! I urge you to write to us either by e mail or snail mail putting all the facts, no need to put any money down and we will investigate in full and put the outcome on here. You will not be penalized by anybody. Please do not use the same tar on everyone you have not given us a chance to do anything about this.
No one came to see us at the show and we are the most open , accessible and friendly people ! Also our secerataries is run by Grandstand media and so we were all well placed to answer you on the spot.
I look forward to your letter !
Wendy
Ps our most expensive on the day entry fee is £45
|
|
|
Post by CarolineNelson on Jul 19, 2015 22:16:46 GMT
The said pony got a ride mark of 37!!!!!!!!!!!!! SO may be that was 3 marks deducted for a rear and 5 for each of the wrong legs!! Interestingly , it was nowhere nearly the lowest mark of the class, another got 22 , to which I would love to know how the judge came to award this? We need more clear clarification on marking . And I also think that given a sp is a type not a breed , the class should be judged more towards the performance than the conformation - so a 60/40 split .... I dont think ANYBODY is blaming TSR , but it is so unfair when you pay upwards of £50 to enter , then maybe another 100 in fuel to be beaten by a pony that has given a disobedient show. I have to say the conf judge gave it 48 so a clear 3 marks higher than anything else, so had it been marked down to maybe 0-10 for its show, it wouldnt of won. ETA - I dont know the jockey personally , but I am sure she was probably as shocked as everyone else when it stayed top .... I'm very tired as am helping run another show - BUT - with respect, I feel I must correct you here. The "Show Pony" and the "Show Hunter Pony" ARE a Breed. The BRITISH RIDING PONY. Registered in the (usually) National Pony Society Stud Book - a Breed Society which has been in existence since 1893!! If you wish, I can proffer more 'historical' info into the background/history of the NPS Stud Book in a few days time. Other stuff to cope with just now.
|
|
|
Post by Spot on on Jul 19, 2015 22:24:27 GMT
Caroline you seem to have contradicted yourself here. The British riding pony is of course a breed. However the show pony classes are open to ANY breed, unlike, for example, Welsh Section A classes.
I totally agree with ponymum, show pony is a type not a breed. However this was not the point in question here.
|
|
|
Post by CarolineNelson on Jul 20, 2015 5:42:29 GMT
Caroline you seem to have contradicted yourself here. The British riding pony is of course a breed. However the show pony classes are open to ANY breed, unlike, for example, Welsh Section A classes. I totally agree with ponymum, show pony is a type not a breed. However this was not the point in question here. Yes, if one wishes to be pedantic, a "SHOW PONY" / or HUNTER PONY etc. is a 'Type'. A 'pattern' if you wish. But, that 'type is dictated by the long established 'style' if the 'Breed' - in this instance the British Riding Pony. For example, a pure Section A Welsh (as you cited this Breed) which is 'typey for it's Breed is 'off type' in a SHOW PONY class. No this was not the question. Nor was there any contradiction.
|
|
|
Post by ponymum on Jul 20, 2015 6:09:55 GMT
Caroline Nelson , can you in your position as a judge offer am opinion on what you would of awarded a show mark to a pony that reared in its show and cantered incorrectly all the way round on a wrong leg??
|
|
|
Post by ponymum on Jul 20, 2015 6:12:32 GMT
Good evening everyone I have only just come on this thread and although I was at the show all day I did not see this class. All the posters who think we will not look into it are wrong ! I urge you to write to us either by e mail or snail mail putting all the facts, no need to put any money down and we will investigate in full and put the outcome on here. You will not be penalized by anybody. Please do not use the same tar on everyone you have not given us a chance to do anything about this. No one came to see us at the show and we are the most open , accessible and friendly people ! Also our secerataries is run by Grandstand media and so we were all well placed to answer you on the spot. I look forward to your letter ! Wendy Ps our most expensive on the day entry fee is £45 TSR - can I ask whose rules the class was run under yesterday? was it Hoys . bsps?
|
|
|
Post by thatboythatgirl on Jul 20, 2015 6:35:30 GMT
I did not see the sp class today so cant comment directly on them. I understand that people get annoyed by a wrong leg beating something that didn't go on the wrong BUT if the pony that wrong legged it is in self carriage covers the ground and works from behind does it deserve to be beat against something over bent and rushed? Personally no I don't think so because a wrong leg is a small mistake normally from rider error which a good judge be able to see! should for a pony that's way of going is far superior be d**ned so badly it should be put to the end of line like people seem to think they should! I did not see that class either but the O.P. states, "the winner of the 14.2 class would not stand for the judge its front legs left the floor then did 2 wrong legs but still won the class" ... whilst I agree with the point you raise, Thatboythatgirl, surely continued bad behaviour must be properly penalised, this is a children's ridden class after all my comments are not directed at these classes because I state I didn't see them and I take what I read online with a pinch of salt! I was just making a general comment as quite often people moan "that won with a wrong leg because it with so and so"
|
|
|
Post by BRP on Jul 20, 2015 6:48:39 GMT
Show Ponies and SHP are a breed type, they are not and don't have to be a pure bred. (Not all) Show ponies include Arab and welsh bloodlines (hence partbreds), even though some breed lines are linebred to keep the show pony standard as per the British Show Pony guidelines and hence registration into the NPS studbook. The majority of show ponies include Arab bloodlines, thats why you see them competing in both show pony classes and partbred Arab classes. The SHP classes are also a type, again native crosses and sometimes arab bloodlines but with more bone. Also a registered SHP does not have to prove it's blood heritage, this can be stated as unknown on the pedigree. Yes both have to meet a Type Standard but they are not a pure breed.
|
|
|
Post by the showing register on Jul 20, 2015 6:53:44 GMT
Ponymum all HOYS classes are run under HOYS rules. TSR rules are also HOYS rules so we sing of exactly the same sheet. I really wish you had come to us yesterday as Grandstand was there as well as all of us. However we have not sat on our hands and we are asking the owner of the pony, stewards,judge and some spectators that we know were there to comment on the ponies show and its behaviour.
We are truly going to get to the bottom of it and as is likely no RULES were broken but it may if everyone is correct a case of the judge not taking sufficient notice of the manners if so we would like to know her reasoning and we will share it with you. Please write a mail to us it will be in confidence and we know that Grandstand will also look at this with us we want to see good judging and fair results. No one else will deal with anonymous posters but we would rather put the truth whichever way it is for everyone to see rather than fuel threads such as this one.
Until we have the info ,which will take a day or so, please be patient.
Wendy
|
|
|
Post by lucynlizzysmum on Jul 20, 2015 7:15:46 GMT
I have followed this thread with interest. I cannot comment on the classes as I was not there, at either of the shows which have been mentioned. I am not a judge, although a steward at various affiliated shows, and very very occasionally will judge at an unaffiliated show, I have had a wrong leg above another so called "foot-perfect" show because, in my eye the wrong leg was rider error and I felt was a more pleasing forward show than the other. And yes, I had to justify myself in the ring!
I feel that if we are not careful, social media will kill our hobby. On this thread we are on to our second set of judges justifying their results. If we have no judges, we have no shows - god knows it's difficult enough to get judges to come and judge at shows, without them thinking I'm not going to bother as I will be slated all over social media. We have had days where we have felt badly done to, I will confess to having had days when we have thought, Jesus how did we win that one! And I agree it's expensive to show, we hardly do any now for that reason.
If you really are unhappy with judging - make it change, vote with your feet - don't enter the HOYS and RI classes (this seems to be where the majority of the arguments come from). Get on the panels yourself, go to your society AGMs and push for change within societies governing the classes.
|
|
|
Post by nst0708 on Jul 20, 2015 10:07:11 GMT
I have also had great interest in this thread and taken on board what everybody has said. My daughter did participate in the SP classes yesterday but not the 14'2 however We also raised an eyebrow at some of the decisions made but appreciate that I am not a judge and respect the judges decision. However, I can totally understand the power of social media and in this case I think rightly so that questions need to be answered.
I can understand why some people have made comments about making complaints through formal procedures but at the end of the day the Judge has made her decision. And would undoubtably be able to back that decision if questioned, and that's why competitors feel ithe complaint maybe would fall on deaf ears. I don't agree with the comment made that we shouldn't complain due to the fact it may deter judges from judging otherwise free speech would be a thing of the past and some judges would have free rein. Forums like this if used properly are an excellent way of highlighting these problems and people perhaps shouldn't subscribe to a gossip forum if they don't like what they read. I applaud TSR for taking the time to read such comments that have been made by numerous people who attend and watched the classes, surely all these different people can't be ringside judges and poor losers as suggested by some.
|
|
|
Post by onejudgeblocking on Jul 20, 2015 15:11:24 GMT
It wasn't just the show ponies yesterday one judge blatantly marked our pony down who did a lovely show ...I would be first to comment if he had gone badly ...he had a v good conformation mark one of top 4 and if he had his average ride mark would have been top 4 ...not saying he would have been the winner . V evident looking at Marks who ride judge wanted but the conformation judge marked her choice down so all to no avail . Next time I will video his ride for all to judge ...he had lowest ride of his career yesterday better marks awarded to over bending ...constantly above bit ...rushing ...spooking and just downright naughty !...This couldn't be as we witnessed the confo judge pointing our pony out twice to ride judge on go round could it ?! Do they really think we that stupid not to notice .
|
|
|
Post by Showing2015 on Jul 20, 2015 15:23:35 GMT
The said pony got a ride mark of 37!!!!!!!!!!!!! SO may be that was 3 marks deducted for a rear and 5 for each of the wrong legs!! Interestingly , it was nowhere nearly the lowest mark of the class, another got 22 , to which I would love to know how the judge came to award this? We need more clear clarification on marking . And I also think that given a sp is a type not a breed , the class should be judged more towards the performance than the conformation - so a 60/40 split .... I dont think ANYBODY is blaming TSR , but it is so unfair when you pay upwards of £50 to enter , then maybe another 100 in fuel to be beaten by a pony that has given a disobedient show. I have to say the conf judge gave it 48 so a clear 3 marks higher than anything else, so had it been marked down to maybe 0-10 for its show, it wouldnt of won. ETA - I dont know the jockey personally , but I am sure she was probably as shocked as everyone else when it stayed top ....
A possible explanation for the high conformation mark (48) could be due to the fact that the conformation judge bred the dam of said winner (148cm Show Pony)!
|
|
|
Post by Fooooool on Jul 20, 2015 15:32:36 GMT
In the next ten mins I am going to stand at my back door and throw money to the wind....... After reading this thread I might as well... Connections connections n conspiracy .... This is showing for heavens sake ...... Things need to change before we all give up ... It's not every class or judge but it needs to be stopped We are the voice..... Time to shout
|
|
|
Post by the showing register on Jul 20, 2015 16:27:01 GMT
We have had time this morning to talk to people involved in the 148 cm show pony class. As far as we can ascertain the show judge has no connection with the winning pony . The conformation judge is a breeder of show ponies so probably had a hand in line breeding more that one pony in the classes as is often the case when breeders judge but we value their contribution as experts in the field.
The pony had 37 marks for its show and coupled with the 48 conformation mark it won the class. We ask our judges to think carefully when awarding the first mark in the class to make sure the standard is set at the correct level. If not then results like this can happen. 25 marks are an average show and judges should use the full range to make sure the class is balanced.
As I said in an earlier post no actual rules have been broken but we have opened up the discussion with all concerned and this helps set the standards for future judging. This is good for the sport no point in sweeping it under the carpet. We must consider the jockey in all this who was taking a spare ride and has had a torrid time. I think we should leave this now and we will not be posting about this class again we consider the matter closed.
|
|
|
Post by Showmanship on Jul 20, 2015 17:51:12 GMT
I was at TSR on the Saturday and watched the HOYS RH classes. The judging of these classes seemed very fair, not facey. These are the only classes I watched as I was busy getting ready myself. I am HP and always miffed when the top 5 are producers, fair play when its deserved. Its also a shame when animals come into the ring that dish, poor conformation, don't actually cover any ground because they look like they've been tied in, cut or unlevel and it seems to be overlooked when you see who is sat on its back/stood behind for the strip. You see them go out for the conformation judge and they start having a chat about the 'do' they were at the night before, or they ask what the dress code is for a forthcoming event. I think this issue should also look at the showmanship of producers. Whilst I understand and appreciate this is their living and they have put their all into building a reputation and now have to maintain it by getting the results. Whether that is through a backhander, back scratching or whatever else goes on. I do believe a lot of them lack showmanship. Recently at the show, 12 in a class, pulling in for line up, last 3 to get called in; one a producer, two HP. The producer was not happy and asked to leave the ring, didn't even go to the line up. Good that the judge wasn't being 'facey' but at the same time, shouldn't have been allowed to leave the ring. Or producers outside the ring, loudly expressing their 'disgust'/discontent, to each other, when a HP pony beats theirs. On the flip side, at another show, very recently, another big class 14 or 15, a producer stood bottom and stayed there, saw the class out. Again not a 'facey' judge. I think the real issue here isn't just judges, its the corruption of showing - can't all be pinned on judges. Nowadays, we are lucky if there's 6 in a RIHS qualifier, when I was younger these classes were well supported up to 20+ in class; sometimes 2 lines of show ponies. Unfortunately I am one of the mugs paying entry fee after entry fee chasing qualifiers. Hopefully, I will take practice what I preach and choose a different discipline next year! Over and out!
|
|