Fox Hunting- Your Views

[ada]

add on!! mr fox paid us a visit killed all my chickens, know hes got to live but why kill the lot?

[suzee]

Ada next ? shooting and fishing if Labour stay in power.

[proudwilliam]

I went hunting yesterday no matter how many times I have been in the past it always sends shivers down my spine when they move off.!!!
Our local hunt is coming to my Dads old farm soon so its mulled wine spiced with brandy on the menu and hot whiskey and lemon.

Not forgeting the kids mars bars for later.

[sunnybear]

ban the ban!!!!!!!!!! my dad would agree with us all!!!!!!!!!

[corrie]

Apr 25, 2009 16:40:37 GMT nativeponies said:

I think the ban should be binned and the government should spend their time worrying about REAL issues, like the state this country is in, like no jobs for us british as they keep letting more people in to what is a tiny island, they should leave us horsey folk alone for a change and do their bloomin jobs!!

too true

[delfachhighwayman]

Having been a supporter in the past I now find myself on the otherside of the fence. I feel the argument that its the most natural way for the fox to die etc etc, is used to freely and makes people feel better for what they are doing.

I have heard of many cases where foxes have been caught, bagged up and then released on the hunt just to be chased to its death- this really doesnt sit right with me.

Yes foxes do kill animals, just like cats and dogs and humans for that matter and if their population needs controlling, then there are more effecient adn effective ways of doing it then this where I know on lots of occassions the fox doesnt get caught? I bet most of the riders following the dogs would feel uncomfortable watching the fox get ripped to pieces, yet it seems we burry our head in the sand and ignore it.

I know that the majority of us country folk support it, but at the moment I can't.

[Guestless]

Oct 25, 2010 8:44:37 GMT delfachhighwayman said:

Yes foxes do kill animals, just like cats and dogs and humans for that matter and if their population needs controlling, then there are more effecient adn effective ways of doing it then this where I know on lots of occassions the fox doesnt get caught?

I never understand this as a comparison - cats and dogs don't go through herds of young animals and kill them all. They take what they need and move on, unlike foxes.

[brindlerainbow]

Had a lovely time on Saturday foot following at the opening meet of the Mid Devon.On Wednesday off cubbing with the South Devon
Fox took one of my hens this morning,she had somehow managed to escape from the run to do a bit of free ranging round the field
Never yet known a cat,dog or human kill a shed load of its chosen species in one go

[delfachhighwayman]

Ok- I see your points that some farmers may find foxes are a pest, but in cases like yours Rainbow- can you hand on heart blame a fox for killing a chicken that you failed to secure?

Maybe it is a necessity to kill the fox in some cases, and maybe it is the humane way of killing it with dogs, but I can't understand why people want to join in for the "thrill" of the ride- it shouldn't be seen as something fun. This is where I feel the arguments are caused between pro and against... If the fox is killed out of necessity- it doesnt sit comfortably with against people that other people "enjoy" the hunting of the fox and the kill. I think this is what winds people up?

Surely you would feel uncomfortable watching any animal die? So why would you associate this act with fun? You can't expect people to understand this.

Like I said I have been on both sides of the fence, and am from a farming background so understand both sides. I just believe the idea of killing for necessity and the fun and pleasure that is tagged along side this causes the unrest in the anti hunt mind.

[Guestless]

Most people out hunting don't actually see a fox being killed - it's usually already done before they catch up with the master.

The "sport" of hunting is about country economics as well though - a lot of farmers couldn't afford to pay for control of foxes and hunts giving a donation in return for being able to ride across the land and control the foxes while they are there made it an easy option for a farmer.

I'm going out for my first hunt this weekend but I'm in Scotland so even more unlikely that dogs will be killing a fox.

[delfachhighwayman]

I appreciate that this kill is not witnessed as i never saw it while I was on the hunt but my point is that its a confused message to antisupport as this is a situation where an animal is persued and killed and on the back of it, riders are having a wonderful day out.

If you want to persuade anti hunt people to your way of thinking in order to lift the ban, you need to appreciate the perception that they have with the two elements I have mentioned. Not everyone who is anti is stupid, its just very hard to accept the act of kiling an animal as necessary and fun in the same light.

Is it sometimes necessary to kill an animal-Yes, should this be pleasurable- I don't think it should. The only way I can see you persuading anti hunt folk that fox hunting is acceptable is to persue the argument of necessity and down play the pleasure associated with your days ride chasing the fox.

[brindlerainbow]

Er delfachhighwayman I wasn't blaming the fox for anything!!! My poultry are kept secure behind electric poutry fencing and thier wings are clipped,this hen had forced her way through a gorse hedge,crossed a stream and entered a field through another gorse hedge in her bid for some free ranging.Unfortunately they cant free range my land at will due to the number of foxes that roam at all hours of the day and night.
I have certainly never heard of foxes being caught,bagged up and released for the hunt, not in this area anyway. We are over run with foxes here and they need controlling and to me the best method is the hunt not some one taking a pot shot
If there are more effective ways of killing them then I would be interested to hear them..........

[viking]

[ the best method is the hunt not some one taking a pot shot
If there are more effective ways of killing them then I would be interested to hear them..........[/quote] brindle rainbow.

and so would I!

Believe me, those that shoot foxes actively enjoy it, they are out most nights of the week, and recognise no closed season.

[brindlerainbow]

[amumwithapony]

I really struggle morally with whether I support hunting or not.

On the one hand I can't think of a nicer way to spend a day than out with a large group of riders, followed by supporters on foot, over fields and through woods and accross farmland that I would probably not normally get to ride on, along with the thrill of natural fences and obstacles on a magical mystery tour. I find the history and tradition very appealing, as well as supporting an economy that ranges from very junior kennel boys, to yards, to the local pub where the meet starts, local saddlerys, as well as farmers and feed merchants that no doubt benefit from horses being kept hunting fit all winter.

However on the other hand I am an animal lover so the thought of doing all that only to watch an animal destroyed at the end of it doesn't sit that well to me?

I agree that the fox population needs controlling. I live in a town and regularily see them out and about BUT I'm not sure that I can support a tradition that may hunt the animal for several hours before it is caught and killed.

However I can't see an alternative that works. At least with the hunt they either get him or they don't, there is no botched shots. He is either clever enough and quick enough to get away or he isn't. I don't think that if we are going to discuss the morals of it all you can compare a man with a gun against a fox v's a hunt against a fox.

We need to either decide that fox numbers need to be kept down in which case the hunt seems as 'fair' a way as any or that they should be just left, no guns, traps or poisons because none of them work effectively enough to not be cruel in their own way.

[hoovesup]

Being a farmer myself, and in the PAST, keeping chickens (a total nightmare), I am FOR fox hunting...
These people who are against fox hunting, most (NOT ALL) are from the city, who dont realise what pests they are! Yes, I understand that there are reasons for being against the ban, for example: cruelty, opposition of the persons religious beliefs, etc... but in my views, fox hunting DOES have positives.
it keeps the numbers of foxes down, because foxes produce multiple cubs every breeding season and if something isnt done, it wont be long before some people who voted for the ban will be complaining that they have foxes in their gardens, or they are fouling in your garden, or they are knocking your bins over, etc...well it would be your fault for banning fox hunting in the first place.

I remember when foxes (before the ban) were hunted, and it was actually quite rare on the hunting field that we did catch one, so its not as if we are going on a murdering spree or anything...

Foxes dont kill what they need to eat, they kill for the fun of it! Put a fox in a coop of 50 chickens...it wont just kill one for its meal and leave, it will kill ever last one of them because it is a bloodthirsty animal which causes more anger and money loss than its worth.
We once had 75 chickens on our farm, quite happily cooped up at night, and let out to roam the farm in the day. The dogs were amongst the chickens all day, and never once layed a paw or bared their teeth at any of them, these dogs kept the foxes away. The chickens were cooped up one night, the dogs fast asleep in the kitchen, and I hear the frantic clucking of the 70 odd hens in the coop, so i let the dogs out, get my tourch and i go the the coop to find at least 50 chickens already dead and ONE fox amongst them trying to catch the others. Now, what was the point in that one fox killing 50 chickens which it would never have eaten? I wouldnt have been so mad if it had just killed one or two a day (i would still be mad) but 50 just wound me up so much.

I'm sorry to those of you that like the ban, but dont come complaining to us EX-hunters when you are complaining about too many foxes, you brought it on yourselves

Sorry if this is very long and sounds patronising to anybody, but i felt the need to have a good rant and i didnt mean to offend anybody lol

[brindlerainbow]

Well said hoovesup
These antis are also the same people that put down slug pellets,rat poison etc because they have pests in thier gardens...............................................

[emma3870]

my 10 year old is going hunting for the first time today and is very very excited. she has seen first hand what a fix is capable of and wants them controlled. we shot 3 last winter on our land. in one day they took 11 chickens.

I am jealous of her going. I didn't fancy taking a newly backed 3 year old but I will be joining her at the boxing day hunt and new years day hunt.

[mcw]

here's an idea, if you feel so strongly about this, why don't you start a petition and see if you get anywhere x

[tabbyx]

ban the ban!!
friends had 40 chickens killed by a fox(they have a cctv camera on their house,so they have proof) one was taken by the fox the rest all had their heads ripped off and were just left. if you don't call that blood thirsty then what is!they were in a very well secured run, with electric poultry fencing,clipped wings,4ft high very thick hedges that nothing, even the escape artist terrier can get through and he can get through everything.
at our old yard we had 2 bantem chickens and 4 chicks, all of them were killed by foxes.

[delfachhighwayman]

A few things that have disappointed me reading this thread:
1) Don't just assume that its only City people who want the ban- although there was a majority vote in the countryside against the ban its still was not everyone and I imagine those who did not vote- many of them may want the ban.

2) Are any of you who label foxes as "blood thirsty" zoologists? You will find that the intention fo the fox is to kill as much as possible and carry its kill back to its den, however as the fox can only carry small amounts at a time this would result in many trips back and forth, and as these foxes are often disturbed during the kill this doesnt happen.
Also - before referring to animals as blood thirsty-take a look at the human race-I'm no vegetarian but just think about the amount of food waste that you leave- I bet the majority of us wouldnt eat certain parts of an animal and would see it chucked away! Now thats blood thirsty, killing only to chuck away the meat! How many fo you have cats that kill mice and rats just for fun?

3) Finally it is very wrong to assume that fox hunting was really controlling the number of foxes in the first place.

The following link provides a sound unbiased analysis of research carried out:
www.thefoxwebsite.org/foxhunting/index.html

[gwynsmum]

delfachhighwayman I agree with everything you have said and I am one of those cat owners that has a cat that goes to kill for fun...not just rats and mice, but over £500 worth of koi carp, 2 parrots, someone's pet rabbit, seaguls, magpies, woodpigeons, etc

And I am a hypocrite as I am not a vegetarian but can't watch animals being killed for food consumption...

[delfachhighwayman]

Thanks for your honesty Gwynsmum- really refreshing and appreciated.

Having been a hunt supporter in the past and avidly defending it to non supporters, I understand its so easy to get sucked into the pro hunt mind set (as I did) but when I took a step back and really considered the arguments for hunting foxes, I just couldnt make it stack up.

I thought my cats were expensive high maintenance cats, but your cat seems to have taken it to a whole new level!!

[bowditchblobs]

I hunt and support hunting, but i do not think that the ban should be lifted! Why?? Hunting is now more popular than ever, most hunts still hunt foxes [er yes they def do] and hunting is now out of the public debate [mostly] and is left alone, and the majority of the great un washed have buggered off to go annoy some other poor sod and most hunts are left in peace [ours is].

If the ban is lifted there will be hunting debates raging on for ever and i will be chased by a dread locked, jobless un washed person once again!!!!!!!!! Leave it as it is!

[viking]

;D Lol furball, I really like your take on things. You've made an excellent point.

delfachhighwayman, I just wonder what method you would advocate to control foxes....


oh don't tell me .....you don't believe they need controlling at all!

[delfachhighwayman]

But you arent controlling thee foxes!!! Its been proven!!

Also in consideration of the question -do they need controlling at all? I quote a point made by researchers from the university of bristol

"Each year, rabbits cause an estimated £120 million of damage to agriculture in Britain. Foxes cause an estimated £12 million of damage but this needs to be put in perspective, because rabbits are the main prey of foxes in rural areas. By eating rabbits, foxes provide an indirect economic benefit to farmers of at least £7 million annually. Because fox benefits offset their costs, foxes are probably economically neutral to farmers. " (bristol university)

I came on to this thread to read a balanced, intelligent argument that may open my mind further an help me accept the need to hunt foxes this way again, however I am disappointed with the ignorance, rudeness and arrogance of SOME of the pro hunt followers. This closed mind approach you are taking towards your cause will only further narrow your mind but also turn off those who fight against your cause even more.

[gwynsmum]

I always had an open mind about fox hunting as it is not something I grew up with (coming from Belgium where I was born and raised). However the thing I don't like is that a pack of dogs chase the poor fox and then rip it to bits. Maybe I have a blinkered view as I have never been on a hunt (and never intend to either) It isn't natural behaviour to me.

Foxes killing rabbits is natural behaviour in my view.

What I do find is that people are very pro and I think this thread comes over that way. I think it puts people that are against or have an open mind feel frightened to post.

Can I ask those people that go on hunts, what happens to the fox when it has been killed by the dogs? Do the dogs eat it, is it left behind, taken home as a trophee
Are any other animals then foxes hunted?

[viking]

Why not try looking at it from another point of view. I don't know how many rabbits fox ate but what I can tell you is that losses from lamb/geese/ducks far outweighed unnoticeable saved revenue from loss of rabbit!

I suggest you try upland farming next to vast acres of forestry!

The one thing that the ban has done is given good marksmen, and not so good marksmen, a reason to be out with a gun. The fox is a notoriously difficult creature to shoot and kill cleanly. Personally I doubt the result is often humane.

I ask you again, forget those spurious figures, they take no account of my, or many other farmers losses, what method of control, assuming you recognise that in some areas it is necessary, would you advocate?

[delfachhighwayman]

Hi Viking

I take it from your post that you are a farmer? Its interesting to hear a farmer's point oif view. I can't forget the 'spurious' figures as I take great interest in the work of university research as this is my background. I can understand its difficult to see the economic benefit a fox could bring a farmer when it is the form of outwieghing the negative impact of the rabbit, but none the less, the data has been tested and stands so I can't ignore it.

I need clarity for my understanding and I think this is something you might be able to help me with, I understand from many of the previous posts that pro hunters claim that with the fox hunting you advocate, very few foxes are actually caught, and this was used as a positive side of fox hunting. I don't understand why, if fox hunting is so necessary to control numbers, (as has been said in many previous posts), why then, use a method that is clearly inefficient at meeting this objective?

If reducing the fox population and controlling it, why take pot luck? Or is this just an excuse used to cover up a real love for the hunting?

I ask this because I genuinely don't understand...

[viking]

dfh. You have not yet answered my question.